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PPE - Looking for opinions

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Wow. Thank you all so much for the advice. I will reply to some of the more specific questions in a bit. I am not in a rush to buy, I want to do right by myself, my future horse and my goals.

    Comment


    • #22
      Bad flexions are usually either a full stop, not willing to go further or an indication to radiograph/ultrasound. Injecting (particularly a stifle!) without actually taking a look-see at what's going on in there is......odd. You have no idea what might be happening, and a bad flex there can be a lot of different things.

      This horse sounds like a great fit for you, so haul him into a referral clinic and have the most talented lameness guy in your area look at him. Vets range in skill on diagnosing lameness. It's worth it to use someone who's REALLY good at it.

      If you're not sure who that person is in your area, post where you are, and people here will help you figure it out.

      Comment


      • #23
        I'd ultrasound the suspensory and if that looks ok, maybe the stifle. I think injections can make them feel better for a month or so even if it's a soft tissue injury - I'd be careful even if he flexes clean after the injections.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by summerfield View Post
          I will be the one to throw in a voice of caution, although I do think he is really, really cute.

          There is always a risk buying a horse that is not already performing at the level you want to ride.

          You say he is lacking conditioning from the lesson program, which tells me he isn't being used a ton, and that you are improving him, which tells me you are the most advanced rider on him, and you are showing at 2'. He has only been jumping for 6 months.

          He may be just fine bopping around a 2-foot course. He may not be fine doing 3'3" and Training level. There's a reason most school horses really don't jump much higher than 2' - 2'6". Will you be okay if he can't do what you want?
          I agree, there's definitely a chance he won't be comfortable higher than 2'6". We were starting slow and easy, to not overface him and give him confidence over jumps. He's doing great - but he's still green at it I would say as this was the 5th time he'd gone over the rolltop and the first time he dodged so bad I almost came off.

          And that's a tough question to answer. I would be okay if he were sound and good jumping 2'-2'6" and a potential lease/sale horse.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by beowulf View Post
            In the video you posted... he's not sound. To me he looks weak behind - is it a general weakness from being out of shape, or is it from an actual injury?

            The LH is subtle but the RH is not. It's most obvious when you ask for canter from trot, watch how the RH has an odd circumduction to it and a much shorter stride length, and seems to rotate inward but not push -- and then cantering, is obvious around turns on the right hand lead, very quick to deload the RH and not much separation of hinds in that direction. Watch the ending where you come back to trot, watch the LH and how it circumducts to avoid loading the RH.

            As gently as possible, I'd suggest developing your eye to lamenes, same goes for your trainer, who should have picked up on this..

            When you are assessing a horse for lameness, some things to keep in mind for hind lamenesses: watch both legs - do they both stride the same distance? Overtrack, not track up at all? Do they both articulate to the same degree, does one leg stay suspended in the air longer (RH), or have a hitch to it when being pulled forward (RH), is there much separation of the hinds in the canter? Does one leg have a shorter stride? Do they load (place weight down) the hoof evenly? Does a toe, or both toes drag? One thing about hind limb lameness that is tricky.. sometimes, the horse deloads (swaps weight to the sound limb) the lame limb quickly, which presents as a shorter stride in the *SOUND* limb.. so sometimes the shorter stride in the hind leg is the SOUND leg and not the lame leg.. very tricky to see, and the way I distinguish between the two is to watch how the hoof lands, and note any deviation in locomotion of both limbs.

            Is he shod behind? I can't tell in the video... almost looks like he is, but if he isn't, I'd be putting shoes on him first and developing a conditioning program meant to strengthen the hindquarters and stifles: so, hillwork and poles..

            All that being said... I like him a lot. I think he is priced fairly at $5500 if he is sound, but I would not go buying him until you know the outcome of the stifle injections and why he is lame.

            It is not uncommon for horses to flex positive behind marginally, especially once they enter their early teens. That is not always a huge red flag for me for LL pursuits, and if you can manage his comfort with injections, he looks like a nice horse.. I would just make sure you know why he is lame before you buy him. If it's general weakness, he's probably a nice prospect... but if he's lame because of, say, a stifle injury, that's a tough road to recover from and stifle injuries tend to follow them around the rest of their riding careers.
            Thank you for all the feedback. I am taking it seriously and will work to improve my lameness radar.
            He is shod on all four. He is out 24/7 and NC has been wet - I started him on Keratex a week ago and I'm hoping that will help his hooves. He did test sensitive in his frogs/soles on some of his feet as well.
            I agree, I will definitely wait to purchase until I know if/why he is lame. There is a limit to the risk I'm willing to take.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by DarkBayUnicorn View Post
              I have to agree with summerfield and beowulf that there is something highly suspect going on behind in the video. I would want to know a lot more about WHY he's unsound behind before writing a cheque.

              Now, if your stated goal was to toodle around local schooling shows at 2' or 2'3" like you are now, I would be a lot less concerned. But the amount of push from behind required to jump 3' or 3'3" or to stay sound galloping cross country? Different ballgame.

              Question for you: in the video, you ask only for simple changes (and I think I heard someone saying something along the lines of "the leads are a problem" in the backgroud audio), but have you asked for and has he successfully given you a flying change? Can he swap leads cleanly in both directions at liberty? Sticky leads and cross-cantering can be indicative of stifle problems.

              Also, you said earlier he tends to get quick over fences, but I'm seeing a pretty pedestrian canter (people clucking at you on the audio). Does he light up at higher jumps only? He could be using velocity to clear jumps rather than rock back and push with his hind end. Another indication of something going on back there.

              Any chance you can lease him from your trainer for a year with the option to buy him out if he stays sound and progresses in work? He otherwise looks a lovely, kind type to learn on.
              He has given a flying change when asked. It is much easier for him to give the change when going from right to left but he has also given it from left to right. I stopped pushing for the flying once I felt him get strung out as I didn't want to stress him out.
              The clucking when we were passing is because he had previously attempted to end the course at the gate rather than continue and it was encouragement.
              He does not just light up at higher jumps. This was one of the hunter rounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP6HoPUCVLk and he was definitely forward here. One of my biggest flaws is holding too much instead of just letting him go forward.
              Leasing is an option tho! It's definitely something I was considering in assessing the situation as it is now.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Originally posted by TMares View Post
                Now that I watch him on a big screen, not my phone, he is off on that RH for sure- not hugely- but he doesn't USE it, he brings it along.

                I bought this three year old:
                https://youtu.be/FhQCjZNyCRs

                And couldn't see or feel his 'off' ness behind. We piddled for a while as I tried to get him fitter, he'd fall out behind on that RH. Had the vet out and while he had a cigarette and talked on the phone he watched me walk him around. He hung up and hollered YOU DON'T FEEL THAT?? I laughed and said no. I wasn't ready to inject so we did cold laser treatments. He improved, but wasn't perfect, and I did work on his fitness. FF a few years and I had both injected. He is absolutely sound as a dollar now two years post injection and the vet palpated them with his annual floating and declared them awesome - but what I wouldn't give to get in a time machine and ultrasound both stifles THEN.

                You have big goals to jump 3+ feet. Maybe it is worth it to do more diagnostics to rule him in or rule him out.
                That's good to hear! The more I think and read, the more it looks like I'll want to ultrasound SI and stifle for peace of mind.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                  Bad flexions are usually either a full stop, not willing to go further or an indication to radiograph/ultrasound. Injecting (particularly a stifle!) without actually taking a look-see at what's going on in there is......odd. You have no idea what might be happening, and a bad flex there can be a lot of different things.

                  This horse sounds like a great fit for you, so haul him into a referral clinic and have the most talented lameness guy in your area look at him. Vets range in skill on diagnosing lameness. It's worth it to use someone who's REALLY good at it.

                  If you're not sure who that person is in your area, post where you are, and people here will help you figure it out.
                  Thank you for the advice. I'm in Chapel Hill, NC if anyone has any lameness vets they'd recommend!

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by theresak View Post
                    I'd ultrasound the suspensory and if that looks ok, maybe the stifle. I think injections can make them feel better for a month or so even if it's a soft tissue injury - I'd be careful even if he flexes clean after the injections.
                    Okay that makes sense. I'll probably plan on ultrasounding suspensory, stifle, and SI

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by jmp1993 View Post

                      Thank you for all the feedback. I am taking it seriously and will work to improve my lameness radar.
                      He is shod on all four. He is out 24/7 and NC has been wet - I started him on Keratex a week ago and I'm hoping that will help his hooves. He did test sensitive in his frogs/soles on some of his feet as well.
                      I agree, I will definitely wait to purchase until I know if/why he is lame. There is a limit to the risk I'm willing to take.
                      That is smart.

                      I second whoever said to go to a lameness specialist and see what all they can tell you, since one vet already did have questions with what it found.
                      When in doubt, not to go there makes sense.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        My question is - why the jump to purchase instead of continuing to lease? It sounds like a win-win for you and your trainer. You can continue your growth on the horse, she gets the benefit of you putting good miles on the horse, but you're not tied into a horse that's potentially best limited to a 2' arena. Food for thought...?

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by jmp1993 View Post

                          Thank you for the advice. I'm in Chapel Hill, NC if anyone has any lameness vets they'd recommend!
                          Here is a thread (a few years old) about lameness vets in that area

                          https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...recommendation

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            "My goal for myself is to have a fun horse I can dabble in the 3'3" hunter/jumper rounds, pursue up to Training level eventing, and attend clinics."

                            Those are pretty big dabbles. Personally, a 15.1 cross breed who has backend red flags at 8 is not the direction I would go. If he's a good boy that gives you the confidence you need I'd try to do a long-term lease. He's super cute but he doesn't strike me as the type that is going to find 3'3 effortless.

                            If you can resolve the underlying lameness issue and would be just as happy doing unrated 2'6-2'9 and BN/N for the next 10+ years I think he could be a really special long term partner. There is also no reason why he couldn't be your BN/N horse and then find him a great next home in 2-4 years while he is still young and fit.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              This might be a dumb question, but the people seeing lameness in the equitation video, can you point out the time signature of where you are seeing it and what you are seeing? I'm looking and looking, but I don't see anything beyond maybe a horse that needs to build up some fitness and get stronger in the hind and more balanced. Trying to figure out what I'm missing. The only thing I can see is that he seems to prefer his left lead, but I know plenty of sound horses that prefer one lead over another until they even out. I'm looking on a computer screen so it's large.

                              The gaited 3 year old looks lame to me, even at a gait. I can see that. I can't see it on this guy though. And I'd like to get a better eye for it, I'm always paranoid about my horse.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Jo View Post
                                My question is - why the jump to purchase instead of continuing to lease? It sounds like a win-win for you and your trainer. You can continue your growth on the horse, she gets the benefit of you putting good miles on the horse, but you're not tied into a horse that's potentially best limited to a 2' arena. Food for thought...?
                                That makes sense, especially considering that if the horse is really 1/2 TWH, his athletic potential may just be less than ideal.
                                One example, it may be harder to confirm in changes, if you get there at all.
                                TWH are known for wonderful dispositions and work ethic, but not being the most agile horses, compared with other horses bred for the more demanding physical tasks like jumping, that require a quick turn of foot.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
                                  This might be a dumb question, but the people seeing lameness in the equitation video, can you point out the time signature of where you are seeing it and what you are seeing? I'm looking and looking, but I don't see anything beyond maybe a horse that needs to build up some fitness and get stronger in the hind and more balanced. Trying to figure out what I'm missing. The only thing I can see is that he seems to prefer his left lead, but I know plenty of sound horses that prefer one lead over another until they even out. I'm looking on a computer screen so it's large.

                                  The gaited 3 year old looks lame to me, even at a gait. I can see that. I can't see it on this guy though. And I'd like to get a better eye for it, I'm always paranoid about my horse.
                                  What I was seeing, only time I watched the video when first posted, is one turn going away his right hock was not turning right, left behind and he had to pull himself.
                                  I assumed, along with the longer simple changes, that it was the half TWH at play there, if he inherited a little of the gaited, hind end pacing conformation.

                                  When I have time later will look again.

                                  You do know the video programs have functions where you can slow them down considerably and so see more of how the footfalls happen?
                                  That helps see so much more, that you then confirm when sped back up to normal, if it is reflected there also, not just the moment of the stride looking odd in slow motion.

                                  We can take any horse and video apart, but then, the proof is in how it works for a rider and it's goals, no matter what may seem less than perfect there.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by Jo View Post
                                    My question is - why the jump to purchase instead of continuing to lease? It sounds like a win-win for you and your trainer. You can continue your growth on the horse, she gets the benefit of you putting good miles on the horse, but you're not tied into a horse that's potentially best limited to a 2' arena. Food for thought...?
                                    I appreciate the insight! My hesitation was I am only half leasing currently which means he was being used in lessons (before coming up lame) so any progress I was making was being undone when a less experienced rider got on him.
                                    But based on the ppe, the feedback y’all have given me and my own thinking I do believe a lease is a solid way to go. I would probably then pursue a full lease to get him into a solid conditioning program

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
                                      This might be a dumb question, but the people seeing lameness in the equitation video, can you point out the time signature of where you are seeing it and what you are seeing? I'm looking and looking, but I don't see anything beyond maybe a horse that needs to build up some fitness and get stronger in the hind and more balanced. Trying to figure out what I'm missing. The only thing I can see is that he seems to prefer his left lead, but I know plenty of sound horses that prefer one lead over another until they even out. I'm looking on a computer screen so it's large.

                                      The gaited 3 year old looks lame to me, even at a gait. I can see that. I can't see it on this guy though. And I'd like to get a better eye for it, I'm always paranoid about my horse.
                                      When you are assessing lameness, you are watching the horse as a whole - not just one leg -- things like paying attention to the trot and upward transitions, as well as downward, how they move around turns, how they push off for a jump or what they do before a fence, how their tail and head are carried, how evenly their legs land, can all make the difference in detecting subtle lameness that are not as obvious as a limping leg. How they push off before a fence, and how they land - these are tiny clues that can tell you about onesidedness in the horse, weaknesses, or discomfort. These are signs of lameness. A weakness is a lameness.

                                      Some parts of note:
                                      0:00 - 0:05 - you can see, that RH is landing straighter and shorter than LH - see how it bows out, then "slams" down?

                                      0:05 - 0:07 - strung out canter, but watch the tail, and watch how that RH stifle will not "push off" for canter depart.

                                      0:23 - first jump effort, watch the RH before all departs - the horse is making an effort to push off with his LH; watch the approach before all departs and see how he is "shuffling" to fit his LH down before takeoff. He is primarily pushing off with his LH to my eye.

                                      0:25 + Watch the canter, how drastically different left lead canter is from right lead, where on right lead there is very little separation of the hinds in canter strides

                                      0:52 - you can see there is some "stifley" action going on here around the turn, the landing of the leg is not smooth, the fetlock "snaps" back up soon as hoof lands, etc - this is indicative of a horse that is sorefooted behind;

                                      1:08 - again watch the hind legs through the turn, very little separation of hind legs during canter, again horse pushes off to jump primarily with LH instead of RH, and lands on the wrong lead

                                      Some things to watch over the fences, is how the horse "trails" the RH over the fence; part of it is natural due to how horses jump fences and what lead they are on, but the most obvious instance is around ~1:14, where he clears the fence and you can see he is not articulating his stifle fully and is instead "pulling" the RH along. He does this several times.

                                      1:25 (easier to see, if you go to "slow mode" - watch how both hinds land almost at the same time mid canter stride)

                                      1:27 Again around the turn, you see his fetlocks "snapping" and very little separation of hind legs around the turn; that tightness around the turn is indicative of some sort of soreness --

                                      1:28 - 1:32 -- check out how he wont fully articulate the hind stifle right after the fence - see how short strided that RH (outside leg) is?

                                      1:35 - watch the hind legs in the trot - that is a "stifley" trot - though he is also strung out.

                                      1:44 + watch how far the LH circumducts inward to load off the RH


                                      Re: the gaited 3 year old.. be careful - gaited horses are usually bred to "bob" their head like that, it is considered a good thing and a sign, iirc, of a park horse that is a pleasure to ride - it is not always a sign of lameness in those breeds.

                                      I still think this horse is really nice. I would not say he is blatantly lame, but I could tell he is not quite 100% comfortable. I'd be curious to see what his stifles look like, because I do think he's battling some general weakness in that area.
                                      AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                                        When you are assessing lameness, you are watching the horse as a whole - not just one leg -- things like paying attention to the trot and upward transitions, as well as downward, how they move around turns, how they push off for a jump or what they do before a fence, how their tail and head are carried, how evenly their legs land, can all make the difference in detecting subtle lameness that are not as obvious as a limping leg. How they push off before a fence, and how they land - these are tiny clues that can tell you about onesidedness in the horse, weaknesses, or discomfort. These are signs of lameness. A weakness is a lameness.

                                        Some parts of note:
                                        0:00 - 0:05 - you can see, that RH is landing straighter and shorter than LH - see how it bows out, then "slams" down?

                                        0:05 - 0:07 - strung out canter, but watch the tail, and watch how that RH stifle will not "push off" for canter depart.

                                        0:23 - first jump effort, watch the RH before all departs - the horse is making an effort to push off with his LH; watch the approach before all departs and see how he is "shuffling" to fit his LH down before takeoff. He is primarily pushing off with his LH to my eye.

                                        0:25 + Watch the canter, how drastically different left lead canter is from right lead, where on right lead there is very little separation of the hinds in canter strides

                                        0:52 - you can see there is some "stifley" action going on here around the turn, the landing of the leg is not smooth, the fetlock "snaps" back up soon as hoof lands, etc - this is indicative of a horse that is sorefooted behind;

                                        1:08 - again watch the hind legs through the turn, very little separation of hind legs during canter, again horse pushes off to jump primarily with LH instead of RH, and lands on the wrong lead

                                        Some things to watch over the fences, is how the horse "trails" the RH over the fence; part of it is natural due to how horses jump fences and what lead they are on, but the most obvious instance is around ~1:14, where he clears the fence and you can see he is not articulating his stifle fully and is instead "pulling" the RH along. He does this several times.

                                        1:25 (easier to see, if you go to "slow mode" - watch how both hinds land almost at the same time mid canter stride)

                                        1:27 Again around the turn, you see his fetlocks "snapping" and very little separation of hind legs around the turn; that tightness around the turn is indicative of some sort of soreness --

                                        1:28 - 1:32 -- check out how he wont fully articulate the hind stifle right after the fence - see how short strided that RH (outside leg) is?

                                        1:35 - watch the hind legs in the trot - that is a "stifley" trot - though he is also strung out.

                                        1:44 + watch how far the LH circumducts inward to load off the RH


                                        Re: the gaited 3 year old.. be careful - gaited horses are usually bred to "bob" their head like that, it is considered a good thing and a sign, iirc, of a park horse that is a pleasure to ride - it is not always a sign of lameness in those breeds.

                                        I still think this horse is really nice. I would not say he is blatantly lame, but I could tell he is not quite 100% comfortable. I'd be curious to see what his stifles look like, because I do think he's battling some general weakness in that area.
                                        That is super educational, thanks!

                                        And I actually wasn't looking at the head of the gaited horse, I just noticed that his RH didn't step up nearly as much as his left, short striding. At least it looked like it to me.

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                                        • #40
                                          My vet always starts a PPE by saying "all I am doing here is giving you a picture of this horse at this moment in time"...to my mind "failing" a flexion is not necessarily a reason to not buy. You just have to be realistic about your goals and what the horse may or may not be capable of at that moment in time. I have never once encountered a horse that didn't come up positive in at least one of the flexion tests to some degree--including both of my own. One of which was 3 when I bought her--the other 13. Heck, if you gave me flexion tests, I would trot off crippled.

                                          I agree with those above that your goals might be lofty for this horse--not because I see a lameness in the video (I do not) but because 3'3 and Training level are serious jumps and knowing there are positive flexions before he has started that as a career gives me pause. But that does not mean he can't be serviceably sound at lower levels. Have you ever done 3'3 or Training? Do you KNOW you want that for yourself and your horse, or do you think it looks like fun and want to try it out?

                                          Even serious jumps can be managed with a serviceably sound horse once or twice a year if, the rest of the time, you are jumping lower and competing at a lesser impact level. Do you have a burning need to tear up the cross country course? Are you planning to campaign every weekend, or just compete for fun over the course of a few shows a year?

                                          I don't need you to answer all of these questions for me...but if you consider them for yourself you might find your answer as to whether to buy or lease longer while you wait for another to come along.

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