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PPE - Looking for opinions

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  • PPE - Looking for opinions

    Sorry, it's a novel. *TL; DR at the bottom.
    Hello! I recently started leasing a horse that I am now seriously considering buying. He is a (laugh if you must) TWH/Appaloosa cross, 8 years old, 15.1 hands. Not the horse I thought I would get as a first horse but he has the most willing attitude, gave me my confidence in jumping back after I lost it due to an injury, and has a fantastic personality. We took him to a show this weekend - it was his second ever, first under a covered arena and he did so well. The video of our equitation round is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIReJvrwDg&t=1s
    Today was our pre-purchase exam. He was doing well until we got to the hind end flexions. Front flexions were all negative. Hind left overall was 1/5. Hind right became a problem - ankle/hock were 2/5 and stifle was 3/5. My trainer and I were baffled. He never presented with lameness and felt good undersaddle - I feel bad now thinking I should have caught it. Please see video above for reference on his undersaddle movement.
    I got back into riding after about a two year break six months ago. This horse started seriously jumping six months ago and we've come a long way together.
    The vet is thinking either stifle or SI joint as he is also sensitive when pressure is applied to the rump. The owner (my trainer) paid for a stifle injection and now we're going to wait - have a follow-up in two weeks. X-rays taken on his right side, were all clean.
    My goal for myself is to have a fun horse I can dabble in the 3'3" hunter/jumper rounds, pursue up to Training level eventing, and attend clinics.
    My thinking is he was pushed into work too quickly which is why he is presenting with such significant lameness. Before my trainer got him he was sitting in a field for a year+. She bought him for his brain and he has been a fantastic addition to the lesson program. However, as conditioning is not really the focus of a lesson program, that fell to the wayside and I think he is suffering for that.
    I am happy to take multiple steps back, spend 6 months really focusing on conditioning and ease him back into jumping. I am also well aware many horses require maintenance and will happily spend the money to maintain his body. However, I want to be realistic and am looking for people who don't know the horse at all to take a quick peek and indicate what they would do in my situation. Thank you so much for reading!
    TL; DR: video of undersaddle movement above; horse flexed badly during prepurchase on right hind, clean x-rays, seeking feedback.

  • #2
    Every horse will eventually need maintenance. The fact that he's trucked you around with something nqr in his hind end and never complained says hes a stoic wonderful beast. Have a serious conversation with your vet of course, but I wouldn't be too quick to let a serviceably sound horse slip away.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jmp1993 View Post
      Sorry, it's a novel. *TL; DR at the bottom.
      Hello! I recently started leasing a horse that I am now seriously considering buying. He is a (laugh if you must) TWH/Appaloosa cross, 8 years old, 15.1 hands. Not the horse I thought I would get as a first horse but he has the most willing attitude, gave me my confidence in jumping back after I lost it due to an injury, and has a fantastic personality. We took him to a show this weekend - it was his second ever, first under a covered arena and he did so well. The video of our equitation round is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUIReJvrwDg&t=1s
      Today was our pre-purchase exam. He was doing well until we got to the hind end flexions. Front flexions were all negative. Hind left overall was 1/5. Hind right became a problem - ankle/hock were 2/5 and stifle was 3/5. My trainer and I were baffled. He never presented with lameness and felt good undersaddle - I feel bad now thinking I should have caught it. Please see video above for reference on his undersaddle movement.
      I got back into riding after about a two year break six months ago. This horse started seriously jumping six months ago and we've come a long way together.
      The vet is thinking either stifle or SI joint as he is also sensitive when pressure is applied to the rump. The owner (my trainer) paid for a stifle injection and now we're going to wait - have a follow-up in two weeks. X-rays taken on his right side, were all clean.
      My goal for myself is to have a fun horse I can dabble in the 3'3" hunter/jumper rounds, pursue up to Training level eventing, and attend clinics.
      My thinking is he was pushed into work too quickly which is why he is presenting with such significant lameness. Before my trainer got him he was sitting in a field for a year+. She bought him for his brain and he has been a fantastic addition to the lesson program. However, as conditioning is not really the focus of a lesson program, that fell to the wayside and I think he is suffering for that.
      I am happy to take multiple steps back, spend 6 months really focusing on conditioning and ease him back into jumping. I am also well aware many horses require maintenance and will happily spend the money to maintain his body. However, I want to be realistic and am looking for people who don't know the horse at all to take a quick peek and indicate what they would do in my situation. Thank you so much for reading!
      TL; DR: video of undersaddle movement above; horse flexed badly during prepurchase on right hind, clean x-rays, seeking feedback.
      Why was he sitting in a pasture for two years, maybe rehabbing from an injury?
      If so, that may be why he is sore after being put back in work, if that is bothering him again.

      In that video, the horse there seems fine, not off anywhere?
      That was before the PPE?
      If so, maybe he pulled something that day?

      He seems like a nice horse for someone to get started again, with a little bit more work may even get more polish to him.

      Hard to say what to do, if he works fine as he is as a school horse, rather than training for competition?
      If he fits you and will for some time, see what the vet finds in a little bit of time, if he is ok then, or the same, or worse?

      If that was a horse in some barn you went to look at him, well, keep looking is best.
      A horse you have been riding for several months and know and like and fits, that makes that decision so much harder, not so easy to walk away from that horse.

      I don't think there is a good answer there.
      Need more information on what your vet is seeing, some time to clear if a recent pull, maybe?

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Bluey View Post

        Why was he sitting in a pasture for two years, maybe rehabbing from an injury?
        If so, that may be why he is sore after being put back in work, if that is bothering him again.

        In that video, the horse there seems fine, not off anywhere?
        That was before the PPE?
        If so, maybe he pulled something that day?

        He seems like a nice horse for someone to get started again, with a little bit more work may even get more polish to him.

        Hard to say what to do, if he works fine as he is as a school horse, rather than training for competition?
        If he fits you and will for some time, see what the vet finds in a little bit of time, if he is ok then, or the same, or worse?

        If that was a horse in some barn you went to look at him, well, keep looking is best.
        A horse you have been riding for several months and know and like and fits, that makes that decision so much harder, not so easy to walk away from that horse.

        I don't think there is a good answer there.
        Need more information on what your vet is seeing, some time to clear if a recent pull, maybe?
        Thank you for the reply!
        He was "too forward" of a trail-horse for the woman that owned him before so she gave up. She sent him to my trainer for training to see if he could continue to be a trail horse. He had a good brain and my trainer offered her enough money so she sold him.

        I was going to send the video to the vet, but I agree he doesn't look off. So maybe he did pull something. That was the last class of the day.

        I'm more than happy to do the work!

        He does well as a school horse, is a little intimidating for riders as he tends to get forward to fences.
        He's at the barn and I'm leasing him now - we do get along very well and the trainer says a lot of his progress has been because of me.

        We are definitely going to give him time off as well. And you're right it's not a simply solution necessarily - with horses is it ever?

        Comment


        • #5
          I would be concerned at this level of stiffness and poor "scores" at his young age. He may need some maintenance BUT I would not let a good boy like him slip away. Yes, you may wind up spending some $$ on him, but how invaluable is what he is giving you? If you are careful with him and treat him well, he may last you quite some time.
          "Cats aren't clean; they're covered with cat spit."
          - John S Nichols (1745-1846,writer/printer)

          Don't come for me - I didn't send for you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry, no help, but I LOVE him.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by shiloh View Post
              I would be concerned at this level of stiffness and poor "scores" at his young age. He may need some maintenance BUT I would not let a good boy like him slip away. Yes, you may wind up spending some $$ on him, but how invaluable is what he is giving you? If you are careful with him and treat him well, he may last you quite some time.
              I agree with both of your points. Makes it a difficult decision haha.
              Would you say I should leverage this into a drop in price if I do decide to purchase?

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by bingbingbing View Post
                Sorry, no help, but I LOVE him.
                He’s the best 😍 so playful too, just an absolute sweetheart

                Comment


                • #9
                  Buy him. He's a keeper. Conditioning and strength training will do wonders

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you don't want him- send me his info. He looks like he'd be perfect for my kid, moving up from evil ponies but needs some confidence.
                    Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jmp1993 View Post

                      I agree with both of your points. Makes it a difficult decision haha.
                      Would you say I should leverage this into a drop in price if I do decide to purchase?
                      If he is already priced fairly, the vet results should be replicated and see that there is something in there before thinking you want them to sell him cheaper.

                      Could you get a second PPE opinion?
                      That may help you see what you have there, balance both opinions.

                      I have heard both, sellers and veterinarians say that plenty of times, sales depending on a PPE are fine, they can find serious problems.
                      Other times, PPE just add more questions than bring answers.
                      No one is happy, with little to go by with what was found.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bingbingbing View Post
                        Sorry, no help, but I LOVE him.
                        This. What a total love he is!

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                          If he is already priced fairly, the vet results should be replicated and see that there is something in there before thinking you want them to sell him cheaper.

                          Could you get a second PPE opinion?
                          That may help you see what you have there, balance both opinions.

                          I have heard both, sellers and veterinarians say that plenty of times, sales depending on a PPE are fine, they can find serious problems.
                          Other times, PPE just add more questions than bring answers.
                          No one is happy, with little to go by with what was found.
                          So he is priced at $5500. Depending on the outcome of the stifle injection, I may get a second opinion just to have more info.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I will be the one to throw in a voice of caution, although I do think he is really, really cute.

                            There is always a risk buying a horse that is not already performing at the level you want to ride.

                            You say he is lacking conditioning from the lesson program, which tells me he isn't being used a ton, and that you are improving him, which tells me you are the most advanced rider on him, and you are showing at 2'. He has only been jumping for 6 months.

                            He may be just fine bopping around a 2-foot course. He may not be fine doing 3'3" and Training level. There's a reason most school horses really don't jump much higher than 2' - 2'6". Will you be okay if he can't do what you want?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In the video you posted... he's not sound. To me he looks weak behind - is it a general weakness from being out of shape, or is it from an actual injury?

                              The LH is subtle but the RH is not. It's most obvious when you ask for canter from trot, watch how the RH has an odd circumduction to it and a much shorter stride length, and seems to rotate inward but not push -- and then cantering, is obvious around turns on the right hand lead, very quick to deload the RH and not much separation of hinds in that direction. Watch the ending where you come back to trot, watch the LH and how it circumducts to avoid loading the RH.

                              As gently as possible, I'd suggest developing your eye to lamenes, same goes for your trainer, who should have picked up on this..

                              When you are assessing a horse for lameness, some things to keep in mind for hind lamenesses: watch both legs - do they both stride the same distance? Overtrack, not track up at all? Do they both articulate to the same degree, does one leg stay suspended in the air longer (RH), or have a hitch to it when being pulled forward (RH), is there much separation of the hinds in the canter? Does one leg have a shorter stride? Do they load (place weight down) the hoof evenly? Does a toe, or both toes drag? One thing about hind limb lameness that is tricky.. sometimes, the horse deloads (swaps weight to the sound limb) the lame limb quickly, which presents as a shorter stride in the *SOUND* limb.. so sometimes the shorter stride in the hind leg is the SOUND leg and not the lame leg.. very tricky to see, and the way I distinguish between the two is to watch how the hoof lands, and note any deviation in locomotion of both limbs.

                              Is he shod behind? I can't tell in the video... almost looks like he is, but if he isn't, I'd be putting shoes on him first and developing a conditioning program meant to strengthen the hindquarters and stifles: so, hillwork and poles..

                              All that being said... I like him a lot. I think he is priced fairly at $5500 if he is sound, but I would not go buying him until you know the outcome of the stifle injections and why he is lame.

                              It is not uncommon for horses to flex positive behind marginally, especially once they enter their early teens. That is not always a huge red flag for me for LL pursuits, and if you can manage his comfort with injections, he looks like a nice horse.. I would just make sure you know why he is lame before you buy him. If it's general weakness, he's probably a nice prospect... but if he's lame because of, say, a stifle injury, that's a tough road to recover from and stifle injuries tend to follow them around the rest of their riding careers.
                              AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by beowulf View Post
                                In the video you posted... he's not sound. To me he looks weak behind - is it a general weakness from being out of shape, or is it from an actual injury?

                                The LH is subtle but the RH is not. It's most obvious when you ask for canter from trot, watch how the RH has an odd circumduction to it and a much shorter stride length, and seems to rotate inward but not push -- and then cantering, is obvious around turns on the right hand lead, very quick to deload the RH and not much separation of hinds in that direction. Watch the ending where you come back to trot, watch the LH and how it circumducts to avoid loading the RH.

                                As gently as possible, I'd suggest developing your eye to lamenes, same goes for your trainer, who should have picked up on this..

                                When you are assessing a horse for lameness, some things to keep in mind for hind lamenesses: watch both legs - do they both stride the same distance? Overtrack, not track up at all? Do they both articulate to the same degree, does one leg stay suspended in the air longer (RH), or have a hitch to it when being pulled forward (RH), is there much separation of the hinds in the canter? Does one leg have a shorter stride? Do they load (place weight down) the hoof evenly? Does a toe, or both toes drag? One thing about hind limb lameness that is tricky.. sometimes, the horse deloads (swaps weight to the sound limb) the lame limb quickly, which presents as a shorter stride in the *SOUND* limb.. so sometimes the shorter stride in the hind leg is the SOUND leg and not the lame leg.. very tricky to see, and the way I distinguish between the two is to watch how the hoof lands, and note any deviation in locomotion of both limbs.

                                Is he shod behind? I can't tell in the video... almost looks like he is, but if he isn't, I'd be putting shoes on him first and developing a conditioning program meant to strengthen the hindquarters and stifles: so, hillwork and poles..

                                All that being said... I like him a lot. I think he is priced fairly at $5500 if he is sound, but I would not go buying him until you know the outcome of the stifle injections and why he is lame.

                                It is not uncommon for horses to flex positive behind marginally, especially once they enter their early teens. That is not always a huge red flag for me for LL pursuits, and if you can manage his comfort with injections, he looks like a nice horse.. I would just make sure you know why he is lame before you buy him. If it's general weakness, he's probably a nice prospect... but if he's lame because of, say, a stifle injury, that's a tough road to recover from and stifle injuries tend to follow them around the rest of their riding careers.
                                He does move oddly behind here and there, but consider his breeding, TWH/appy.

                                You get that in some TWH crosses I saw, rather common.
                                I gave lessons with those horses when I was teaching in AL.
                                They tend to be a bit more substantial, but maybe the appy used was on the lighter side?

                                That odd step here and there may not necessarily mean not quite right.
                                Could be the cross of so different ways of going.
                                It is good to be aware of all, could be something, may not mean much.

                                A trainer a while back asked me about a horse for a beginner for trail riding.
                                Sent me a video asking if the horse was crippled, it moved oddly.
                                Yep, horse was doing some kind of gait, but seemed sound.
                                Vetting her would tell the difference.

                                Educating your eye to all that is very interesting.
                                You can see real problems and some times, is just how the horse moves.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have to agree with summerfield and beowulf that there is something highly suspect going on behind in the video. I would want to know a lot more about WHY he's unsound behind before writing a cheque.

                                  Now, if your stated goal was to toodle around local schooling shows at 2' or 2'3" like you are now, I would be a lot less concerned. But the amount of push from behind required to jump 3' or 3'3" or to stay sound galloping cross country? Different ballgame.

                                  Question for you: in the video, you ask only for simple changes (and I think I heard someone saying something along the lines of "the leads are a problem" in the backgroud audio), but have you asked for and has he successfully given you a flying change? Can he swap leads cleanly in both directions at liberty? Sticky leads and cross-cantering can be indicative of stifle problems.

                                  Also, you said earlier he tends to get quick over fences, but I'm seeing a pretty pedestrian canter (people clucking at you on the audio). Does he light up at higher jumps only? He could be using velocity to clear jumps rather than rock back and push with his hind end. Another indication of something going on back there.

                                  Any chance you can lease him from your trainer for a year with the option to buy him out if he stays sound and progresses in work? He otherwise looks a lovely, kind type to learn on.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                                    He does move oddly behind here and there, but consider his breeding, TWH/appy.

                                    That odd step here and there may not necessarily mean not quite right.
                                    Could be the cross of so different ways of going.
                                    It is good to be aware of all, could be something, may not mean much.

                                    Educating your eye to all that is very interesting.
                                    You can see real problems and some times, is just how the horse moves.
                                    It definitely pays to be familiar with different breeds and their way of going. I am not good at assessing soundness on gaited breeds... it really pays to have a vet familiar with them any time you do a PPE. I don't see enough of them to have much experience assessing their soundness.

                                    Even across breeds there is a universal definition of soundness, which comes down to "abnormality free", even movement from limb to limb.
                                    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Now that I watch him on a big screen, not my phone, he is off on that RH for sure- not hugely- but he doesn't USE it, he brings it along.

                                      I bought this three year old:
                                      https://youtu.be/FhQCjZNyCRs

                                      And couldn't see or feel his 'off' ness behind. We piddled for a while as I tried to get him fitter, he'd fall out behind on that RH. Had the vet out and while he had a cigarette and talked on the phone he watched me walk him around. He hung up and hollered YOU DON'T FEEL THAT?? I laughed and said no. I wasn't ready to inject so we did cold laser treatments. He improved, but wasn't perfect, and I did work on his fitness. FF a few years and I had both injected. He is absolutely sound as a dollar now two years post injection and the vet palpated them with his annual floating and declared them awesome - but what I wouldn't give to get in a time machine and ultrasound both stifles THEN.

                                      You have big goals to jump 3+ feet. Maybe it is worth it to do more diagnostics to rule him in or rule him out.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Without getting into my long story I would caution you. I bought a horse that passed his PPE just fine. But he did resist flexing one hind leg. That vet said he moved fine, X-rays were clean so no problem. It took me several years, injuries, and vet exams before I finally found out he had a high suspensory tear in the same hind leg.

                                        Comment

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