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  • Originally posted by tja789 View Post
    Wouldn’t it be beneficial, especially to dogs themselves, if knowledgeable breeders were more open to the probable benefits of cross-breeding dogs and contributed their knowledge to produce what the public actually wants in a family pet? I suspect that they feel threatened by the popularity of crosses. They should realize that the popularity reflects what I said previously: many of the crosses are adorable, sweet, less extreme in maladaptive structure, have reduced shedding, and are no less healthy than typical purebreds.
    I breed fully health tested Pembroke Welsh Corgis focusing on companion homes and agility homes. There is no way in ** I'd waste a breeding quality bitch on producing cross breds. My friends/co-breeders and I have spent the past decade busting our *** to eliminate DM in our family tree and increase the number of lovely, correct males who are DM clear and available for others to use. I don't know how many samples I sent to NC State to help with development of a genetic screening for PDA. Those of us devoted to our chosen breed are constantly working to improve the health of our dogs. Crosses are NOT a threat to us. All our our puppies are spoken for long before they arrive.

    Very, very few crossbreds have the prebreeding health testing done to promote health.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by S1969 View Post

      If you've read this thread you will know this is already a pet peeve; I don't understand the continued F1 breeding of a "breed" that has been in existence for 50 years, and being routinely bred in this country for at least 20.

      Therefore, I can't put the words 'good breeder' and "F1 Goldendoodle" in the same sentence. This is called cross-breeding, not breeding.

      Does the breeder conduct health tests on the parents? Maybe that would give them a little more standing.
      I did read the whole thread, but I have to say that I was reading more for the OP and less for your pet peeves Yes though, now that you mention it I'm remembering more of your earlier posts. I'm not suggesting an F1 over further generations, just sharing my own experience. And 15 years ago there were not plentiful examples of F2 or further. We drove 5+ hours just to get an F1 puppy with, yes, a good breeder and good parents. There were health tests if that meets your definition of good standing. Not sure why you would split hairs over a person who makes their livelihood breeding animals - therefore, a "breeder."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tja789 View Post
        Given this mindset, there’s no way high quality breeders will supply all of the puppies that people are seeking to buy. Just a fact.
        I would disagree with this statement. There is absolutely a way for high quality, responsible breeders to provide pets for families. Will these families have to wait for a puppy? Probably. But is that a bad thing? This on-demand mentality is one of the many issues that fuels poor breeding and poor buying habits.

        I know several responsible breeders who are serious competitors (conformation, IPO, field trails, agility...it is a pretty diverse group). They plan their litters carefully, looking at pedigrees and using their knowledge of what each generation brings to the table regarding health and temperament and ability. One of these breeders is a regular breed participant at Westminster. Another competes internationally, handling dogs they have bred themselves. Despite all their knowledge and effort, the majority of their puppies go to pet homes because their criteria for a competitive dog is so high.

        High quality, responsible and knowledgeable breeders are selling to pet homes. They can absolutely supply all the pet puppies. The buyers have to change their mentality in order to access these breeders though.
        Sheilah

        Comment


        • Originally posted by IdahoRider View Post
          I would disagree with this statement. There is absolutely a way for high quality, responsible breeders to provide pets for families. Will these families have to wait for a puppy? Probably. But is that a bad thing? This on-demand mentality is one of the many issues that fuels poor breeding and poor buying habits.

          I know several responsible breeders who are serious competitors (conformation, IPO, field trails, agility...it is a pretty diverse group). They plan their litters carefully, looking at pedigrees and using their knowledge of what each generation brings to the table regarding health and temperament and ability. One of these breeders is a regular breed participant at Westminster. Another competes internationally, handling dogs they have bred themselves. Despite all their knowledge and effort, the majority of their puppies go to pet homes because their criteria for a competitive dog is so high.

          High quality, responsible and knowledgeable breeders are selling to pet homes. They can absolutely supply all the pet puppies. The buyers have to change their mentality in order to access these breeders though.
          Sheilah
          I totally agree that high quality puppies are available! I want one next time. That said, I think you and LadyJ are talking past one another. she said "all the puppies" meaning to meet demand for pups. and I agree that not everyone who wants a good pup can get one now for an affordable price, and many will not wait. But you are right also that there are a lot of good breeders out there and I will vet thoroughly next time I want a dog.

          I need a smallish dog with a great personality that can be farm friendly and totally housebroken. it isn't an easy dog to find. My current rescue is amazing but I feel sorry for how poorly he is conformed. From his erratic teeth to his fat body on tiny legs...he is amazing and everything I want, but nothing I would want to reproduce. I hope he lasts as he is so dear to our family!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
            That said, I think you and LadyJ are talking past one another. she said "all the puppies" meaning to meet demand for pups. and I agree that not everyone who wants a good pup can get one now for an affordable price, and many will not wait.

            I need a smallish dog with a great personality that can be farm friendly and totally housebroken. it isn't an easy dog to find. My current rescue is amazing but I feel sorry for how poorly he is conformed. From his erratic teeth to his fat body on tiny legs...he is amazing and everything I want, but nothing I would want to reproduce. I hope he lasts as he is so dear to our family!
            I honestly believe that we, the buyers, need to learn how to be good consumers. We need to learn how to wait. And we need to learn how to look at cost-to-benefit in what we pay. Can't afford $2,500 for a puppy from a good breeder? Look into buying a young adult from that breeder. I purchased my Toy Poodle as an eight month old, at a 1/3 of the price for an eight week old puppy. It took me well over a year to find the right breeder. But I put the same amount of effort in looking for a pet than I put into researching a new car.

            Speaking of Poodles...they are as close to perfect as you can get I think! I am even learning how to mitigate the grooming costs by learning to to do it myself. Smart, super easy to live with. My guy will be six years old in July and despite his small size, he is a powerhouse. Little to no shedding of coat. If I were to ever get back into conformation showing, it would be with a Mini from a local breeder. What an experience that would be!
            Sheilah

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tja789 View Post


              Anyone who breeds a lot of litters is automatically declared to be a puppy mill and shamed online (as you immediately did).
              No, they are a puppy mill because they have 9 mixed breed litters due THIS SUMMER and I believe their health testing claims are lies. What would you call them?

              (If they are an ethical breeder they will produce an OFA certificate for you - you should email them and ask for one.)

              Legitimate ethical breeders use OFA so that buyers can look up the results themselves. The database is searchable. E.g. here is my dog: https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1547296

              Originally posted by tja789 View Post

              There are many ways to acquire the right dog. Purchasing from a high quality breeder is a fine way, and people should be willing to spend more for pups from health-tested parents. Loyal, beloved companions are also acquired from backyard/family breeders of purebreds or crossbreds, rescues, the local pound, or Craigslist. All of the latter are not unhealthy trash dogs as some people choose to believe. I wish the OP the best of luck in acquiring the right dog for her circumstances.
              I have never said that the dogs are at fault, or inherently unhealthy. The breeders are unethical, that's the issue. And the dogs and owners take the fall.

              I have no issue with rescue or the local pound. I do have issues with bad breeders who make a profit by selling poorly bred dogs to unsuspecting owners.
              Last edited by S1969; May. 28, 2019, 06:08 AM.

              Comment


              • Customers have the power to dry out bad breeders - if they finally start to educate themselves. But so many people want a dog immediately and for cheap without thinking at all. Responsibilty starts with my everday decision what to buy.

                Comment


                • I’m happy to concede the point that the great majority of cross-bred puppies (and purebred puppies for that matter) come from parents that were not health tested. However, this outcome is not surprising since there is a large demand for the mixed breed puppies that show breeders absolutely refuse to supply, nor will they sell a healthy pup to someone who hoped to breed healthy crosses or even breed at all in many cases. Nor will they try to educate other breeders about health tests. They just complain and criticize. Meanwhile the poodle crosses are not going away for reasons I stated previously.

                  I did not say that show breeders don’t sell to pet homes. I said the opposite: most show/performance bred dogs go to pet homes that often aren’t well-equipped to deal with the care and train of purpose bred animals.

                  Honestly is this about breeding healthy, trainable dogs or keeping your favorite breed completely “pure” regardless of the cost? The corgi breeder is typical. There’s no way in **** she will ever do an outcross, but instead spent ten years trying to identify corgis that do not carry the genetic mutation that causes DM. In the meantime, numerous pups were born and will continue to be born that will develop this horrible, horrible condition because the mutated gene that causes it is extremely common throughout the corgi breed. The sad thing is that it could be helped by careful outcrosses to breeds in which the mutation is uncommon. Given that the condition emerges in animals homozygous for a mutation in the SOD1 gene, crosses to a dog homozygous for the normal gene would virtually guarantee that the disease did not appear in the F1 generation. Not saying that this is the only solution, but it is a logical thing to consider if only “good” breeders were not so fanatic about maintaining about maintain completely closed, inbred gene pools.

                  I often wonder why dog breeders aren’t more like horse breeders. Some of the top sport horses in the world (e.g., Hanoverians, other warmblood breeds) have maintained studbooks for hundreds of years. But other breeds particularly TBs and Arabians can be inspected and accepted into the studbook. Good horse breeders know that keeping a 100% closed gene pool would be stupid and not consistent with their goal of breeding sound, athletic horses. It’s too bad that good dog breeders are incapable of even considering this.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tja789 View Post

                    Honestly is this about breeding healthy, trainable dogs or keeping your favorite breed completely “pure” regardless of the cost? The corgi breeder is typical. There’s no way in **** she will ever do an outcross, but instead spent ten years trying to identify corgis that do not carry the genetic mutation that causes DM. In the meantime, numerous pups were born and will continue to be born that will develop this horrible, horrible condition because the mutated gene that causes it is extremely common throughout the corgi breed. The sad thing is that it could be helped by careful outcrosses to breeds in which the mutation is uncommon. Given that the condition emerges in animals homozygous for a mutation in the SOD1 gene, crosses to a dog homozygous for the normal gene would virtually guarantee that the disease did not appear in the F1 generation. Not saying that this is the only solution, but it is a logical thing to consider if only “good” breeders were not so fanatic about maintaining about maintain completely closed, inbred gene pools.
                    We have produced NO At risk dogs in a decade via testing. Besides not producing At Risk dogs we have put great effort in to retaining DM clear males for ourselves and others to use to get away from DM. There is still NO *** benefit to corrupting our fabulous breed with cross breeding. Conscientious breeding has allowed us to produce only carriers or clears. The test only became available a decade ago, and we immediately put it to use. We have also put extensive effort in to assisting with ongoing research on the disease. Because it's serves as a model for ALS in people, there have been extensive funds available for research. All the while maintaining good OFA scores, breed type, and great trainability. Our dogs hold AKC championships, MACH titles, countless other agility titles, rally, tracking, and obedience titles. The ones which don't go in to competition homes makes easily trainable pets. Current generation are also EIC clear, and vWd clear.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      Salo, np about off topic, great discussion. I agree about doing research which is my aim to find one(s) that seem to suit. Then I will look into breeders.

                      Foxhound, I am simply being honest and thorough. I feel if more people evaluated not only their personal wants and dislikes but also those of their SO there may not be so many dogs dumped at rescues.
                      I have helped at rescues and am completely sick of how many times I heard 'didn't know he would get so big/eat so much/stay so small/bite the kids/can't housetrain/shed..... one reason I am not a fan of some of the extreme so called designer breeding.
                      It is one thing to breed a lab to a poodle but a chihuahua to a dalmation, or a terrier doberman!

                      Well, in regards to the last one, unless one gets a hairless one should expect some shedding. I think my Collies were minimal shedders but twice a year they blew their coat.....think mini horse shedding!

                      Border Terrier hey? Sounds great. I guess I have been guilty of judging all terriers with the same stick. I have avoided them because the ones I know of several varieties share eratic energy, poor manners, no recall, digging, chewing, and yappiness. Except the Airdale, he was actually quite a lovely boy, same person who had him has several other varieties, all as above, quite naughty.

                      I am not in a hurry, will continue looking. Thank you for all the help.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        Could someone explain mini aussies to me. I have seen some that don't even look like a collie type. Are they
                        really a mixed breed look alike or have the standard aussies been bred smaller?

                        Another thing I have seen a lot is the term, true multi-gen. (what do they mean) (aussie/lab/doodle, sorry but we used to call that a mutt.
                        Kijiji has and add right now with this opener, Australian labradooies have been a purebred breed since 1989. $2500



                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          Regarding the silver labs, wouldn't dna testing confirm the mixing of the two breeds? If dna testing to determine dog breeds is valid then it should be able to pick up a variable that would indicate non Labrador genetics?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by colorfan View Post
                            Could someone explain mini aussies to me. I have seen some that don't even look like a collie type. Are they
                            really a mixed breed look alike or have the standard aussies been bred smaller?

                            Another thing I have seen a lot is the term, true multi-gen. (what do they mean) (aussie/lab/doodle, sorry but we used to call that a mutt.
                            Kijiji has and add right now with this opener, Australian labradooies have been a purebred breed since 1989. $2500


                            They're recognized by AKC as Miniature American Shepherds. My understanding is that there's still some strife in the ASCA world regarding the legitimacy of the breed. The ones I know are agility dogs, and likely higher drive than you want. Large range of sizes still within the breed

                            The Australian Labradoodle is likely the closest to meeting the standards for being a breed. It is Labrador and poodle mix. But, several generations down from having a purebred parent. so multiple generations of labradoodle crossed to labradoodle. So, breeding true to type. Not personally appealing, but they're consistent type. Also known as Cobber dogs. No idea where they are in terms of applying for AKC recognition.


                            For Silver labs; the gene was introduced far enough back that DNA test now will often come back as purebred. The dilute gene did not exist at all in labs until it "magically" appeared from a kennel breeding both Labs and Weimaraners. In many, you can clearly see the Weim side.

                            Comment


                            • I'm probably in the minority here, but I have dobermans, and they are fantastic dogs that meet your requirements. Very trainable, would love to hang out with you wherever you are, and with a dog blanket can deal with cold. I would go American bred, not euro, for a slightly less "drivey" temperament. It is important that you find a good breeder though, you don't want something with separation anxiety which can be a problem in a dobe. The biggest challenge with them IMO (other than people who are terrified for no good reason) is that they are bred to be your shadow, and they take that very seriously. My current female will sleep happily on the couch as long as I'm sitting here, but the minute I'm up she is right behind me. Great dogs though!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                                I'm probably in the minority here, but I have dobermans, and they are fantastic dogs that meet your requirements. Very trainable, would love to hang out with you wherever you are, and with a dog blanket can deal with cold. I would go American bred, not euro, for a slightly less "drivey" temperament. It is important that you find a good breeder though, you don't want something with separation anxiety which can be a problem in a dobe. The biggest challenge with them IMO (other than people who are terrified for no good reason) is that they are bred to be your shadow, and they take that very seriously. My current female will sleep happily on the couch as long as I'm sitting here, but the minute I'm up she is right behind me. Great dogs though!
                                Not sure of dobies being suited to a place with half the year snow and cold.
                                Dobies were our breed for obedience and helping moving cattle around.
                                That was in the late 70's and early 80's, so long ago.
                                At that time American bred ones were prettier, shinier and classy, but also more nervous and vacillating of temperament.
                                European ones were more square and smaller and less elegant, but more stable and of proper working temperament.
                                We had both types.

                                One problem with dobies, if you leave the ears they tend to get aural hematomas and those need to be drained and stitched so they don't reoccur, but if you have their ears cut to stand up, then you have to fight that to get them to heal and look right.
                                Dobies also have more than their share of skin problems, demodectic mange a serious one.

                                I don't know where the breed is today, we were strictly performance, not conformation and have lost contact with the ones that were competing and breeding in our area.

                                My guess is the OP needs a hairier breed to be better suited to the northern parts of the country, unless the dog is not going to spend much time outside, which the OP has mentioned already was a prerequisite.

                                Comment


                                • There's a story running in the LA media market about a stolen miniature, Siberian Husky. That is one cute dog. I didn't realize that breeders had produced miniatures in that breed.

                                  Here's a question for those of you that have been in the breeding/showing of dogs: Our dog died and we're thinking about getting another. I'm inclined to get two dogs. I've read that it's hard to train two simultaneously. My family always had multiple dogs at the same time. But, they came along one at a time. I'm interested in opinions based on experience.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                                    Not sure of dobies being suited to a place with half the year snow and cold.
                                    Dobies were our breed for obedience and helping moving cattle around.
                                    That was in the late 70's and early 80's, so long ago.
                                    At that time American bred ones were prettier, shinier and classy, but also more nervous and vacillating of temperament.
                                    European ones were more square and smaller and less elegant, but more stable and of proper working temperament.
                                    We had both types.

                                    One problem with dobies, if you leave the ears they tend to get aural hematomas and those need to be drained and stitched so they don't reoccur, but if you have their ears cut to stand up, then you have to fight that to get them to heal and look right.
                                    Dobies also have more than their share of skin problems, demodectic mange a serious one.

                                    I don't know where the breed is today, we were strictly performance, not conformation and have lost contact with the ones that were competing and breeding in our area.

                                    My guess is the OP needs a hairier breed to be better suited to the northern parts of the country, unless the dog is not going to spend much time outside, which the OP has mentioned already was a prerequisite.
                                    The Americans now seem to be quite couch-potatoey, I think breeders have fixed the "nerves" issues in the modern dobe. We have had Americans and Euros and our Euros are just so drivey they aren't really well suited to the typical American owner. My current euro bitch is just unbelievable in terms of drive. She's 11 now and still bouncing off the ceiling.

                                    We've never had an issue with aural hematomas and all of ours have been natural eared. Wonder if that is an ear size function? They do HURT when they whap them around. We do schutzhund, so we didn't crop (mandatory for showing in NA). I think I'd crop the next pup if we decide to get another.

                                    I lived in quite a cold location and mine were a-ok in the cold provided they had something to keep the draft off and provided you don't get a dilute, which is where the skin problems seem to be prevalent. But I would say that they hate being wet. Mine won't even go outside to pee if it's raining unless I hold an umbrella over her. She is a diva though.

                                    Anyway - I'm glad to know you were a dobe fancier! I always feel a certain camaraderie with Doberman owners!

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by tja789 View Post
                                      I did not say that show breeders don’t sell to pet homes. I said the opposite: most show/performance bred dogs go to pet homes that often aren’t well-equipped to deal with the care and train of purpose bred animals.
                                      How many breeders of purebred dogs do you know?

                                      Over my lifetime I've only ever gotten purebreds from known, reputable breeders. Some were intended to be conformation dogs, some only intended to be pets or performance sports and pets.

                                      Every singe purebred breeder I know does their best to place each puppy in the "right" home for that puppy. If someone wants a purebred but only as a pet and house dog, then that's what the breeder will do their best to place with them. If a puppy is higher drive and shows potential aptitude for a performance sport and that's not what the prospective owner is wanting, then the breeder won't place that puppy with that prospective owner.

                                      What exactly are the "problems" with a purpose bred animal that would make them unsuitable for a pet home other than placing the wrong puppy in the wrong home with a wrong owner who has had the wrong expectations of what their new puppy/dog can do and how they should be trained and treated.

                                      "Purpose bred" dogs aren't some special, mystical animal that the mere mortals can't deal with. They are dogs just like all the other dogs you see in pounds, rescues, mixed breed "breeders".
                                      Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by colorfan View Post
                                        Border Terrier hey? Sounds great. I guess I have been guilty of judging all terriers with the same stick. I have avoided them because the ones I know of several varieties share eratic energy, poor manners, no recall, digging, chewing, and yappiness.
                                        I can really only speak for my two boys

                                        Came from two different breeders in two different areas of the country. They love napping in my lap when I'm on the couch. They have a dog door and right now they are both napping in my office near my feet

                                        Manners, one barks at strangers when they come in. The other is quite sure everyone is there to play and love him so yeah, he will put his front feet up on just about everyone. High energy/drive, not mine. You are spot on with the recall, they are very difficult to put a solid recall on (from the lady that first pointed me to BTs).

                                        Mine have Nylabones they chew and other than initial puppy chewing, that's petty much all they chew. Don't mark in the house and that includes my intact boy. They'll even make it outside if they need to puke about 95% of the time.

                                        My one ball oriented dog would 'dig' as part of his playing with his ball outside but now that I have limited his access to balls, the back yard is much safer

                                        Yappy, not while I'm home

                                        I do AKC Scent Work and NACSW Nose Work with both (well, AKC with both and NACSW with one). Almost have Novice title with the one; almost have Advanced title along with NW1 title with the other. They are trainable and are developing drive and confidence to do scent/nose work away from me

                                        Oh, and for tja789, my second BT was more of a deliberate search/selection on my end. The breeder I got him from had a 3 page question I had to fill out about me, my home and my goals, objectives and wants for a puppy from her. She knew I would be doing performance but not conformation. When a puppy from a litter became available as a pet and not as suitable as a conformation dog, I was his new home. If he wasn't what I was looking for, I'm sure I would not have gotten him.
                                        Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                                        Comment


                                        • I’m a little baffled by the “purpose bred” statement as well. I like Labs. I like their size, their temperament and, yes, I even like their messy hairiness. Lol. One of the reasons I stay with purebreds is because I want the type of dog that I like. I use the same breeder, same bloodlines and get exactly what I’m expecting. Of course my dog was purpose bred to retrieve ducks on a cold fall day, but neither one of us is suffering because he doesn’t get to do that.
                                          I think dogs end up in shelters because people don’t do their research and end up with a dog that is not suited to their lifestyle and they are unable or unwilling to adjust their lifestyle to suit the dog.
                                          I like hairy, low key, swimming dogs and I’m willing to vacuum and carry towels around to have that.

                                          Comment

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