Stallion Spotlight

0201171029b-1

Real Estate Spotlight

Copy of asbury aerial
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

dog type

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
    Meaning that responsible breeders do not begin to meet the demand for pet dogs, generally. And they are not trying to do that. So where do ordinary people find their pet dogs?
    I just don't think that's true. I think most pet owners don't even try to find a breeder. And then there are a lot that do contact breeders, and want a puppy NOW, and get mad when the breeder tries to dissuade them from getting a puppy for Christmas, or a breed that is unsuitable, or are unwilling to wait, or are unwilling to pay what the breeder wants. So they go to a pet store and pay half that price for a puppy mill puppy with 'no strings attached.'

    Comment


    • Originally posted by S1969 View Post

      I just don't think that's true. I think most pet owners don't even try to find a breeder. And then there are a lot that do contact breeders, and want a puppy NOW, and get mad when the breeder tries to dissuade them from getting a puppy for Christmas, or a breed that is unsuitable, or are unwilling to wait, or are unwilling to pay what the breeder wants. So they go to a pet store and pay half that price for a puppy mill puppy with 'no strings attached.'
      An issue I have come across is people believe the breeder won’t call them back or ignore emails because they “walk in off the street” if you will. They think you will not be able to get a dog from a good breeder because they have no referral, just found them on the AKC website.

      The people who believe it then don’t bother and find the less ethical breeders.

      Is there truth to this? I know about how to select a breeder and what to look for. I have never purchased a purebred dog as my one and only dog so far was an adoption.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by S1969 View Post

        I just don't think that's true. I think most pet owners don't even try to find a breeder. And then there are a lot that do contact breeders, and want a puppy NOW, and get mad when the breeder tries to dissuade them from getting a puppy for Christmas, or a breed that is unsuitable, or are unwilling to wait, or are unwilling to pay what the breeder wants. So they go to a pet store and pay half that price for a puppy mill puppy with 'no strings attached.'
        I agree with this. The average person isn't educated with regards to dogs - conformation, health, temperament, titles, ethical breeding, etc, etc. I pick apart a dog the way I would pick apart a horse, the average person sees colour, size and a wagging tail.
        And since many people have dogs or grew up with dogs, when they get to a point in their lives that they are ready for a dog, they want it NOW. If that means walking in to a shelter or contacting a rescue that's fine. But if it means browsing the internet for craigslist and Kijiji ads and getting sucked in by pictures of cute puppies? Not ok.

        I know a couple breeders now who have facebook pages, not to buy and sell, but to educate and promote, and to keep everyone updated. Catch people's attention with a picture or video, and then have a blurb about how this dog just received xyz title, or passed abc health cert, etc.

        I personally don't agree with "guardian" home either. The breeders that I know have a no breeding clause, unless you speak with them about selecting a quality puppy, going through with getting titles, health certs, etc. Then they will work with you to select matings that will hopefully produce even nicer pups. And yes, they often do a co-ownership type of deal until the dog is retired from breeding.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

          An issue I have come across is people believe the breeder won’t call them back or ignore emails because they “walk in off the street” if you will. They think you will not be able to get a dog from a good breeder because they have no referral, just found them on the AKC website.

          The people who believe it then don’t bother and find the less ethical breeders.

          Is there truth to this?.
          In my admittedly limited experience, if what you're asking is whether reputable breeders won't deal with "regular" people, happy to respond that nope, not a bit of truth.

          I bought my first purebred last year, after about three weeks of research and contacting breeders out of the blue, and had nothing but wonderful responses. In fact, the breeders who didn't have pups available referred me to others. I discovered later that the people I'd been corresponding with were extremely highly regarded. (The breeders of other breeds on my list were also uniformly great, but since I ended up with a Portie, I can only speak to the renown of those breeders.) Nothing like calling a Lucinda Green looking for your first up down horse!

          Sure, I did my best not to waste anyone's time, by researching the breed, and sent breeders a detailed description of the lifestyle on offer before asking if they thought it might be suitable for any pups they had available then or in the next six months or so. (Having just lost my little old lady, I sympathize with the desire for instant gratification, so 6 months was a struggle, but you try to balance these things.)

          Honestly, the whole process was delightful from the start on all levels. The breeders I talked to loved talking about their dogs.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

            An issue I have come across is people believe the breeder won’t call them back or ignore emails because they “walk in off the street” if you will. They think you will not be able to get a dog from a good breeder because they have no referral, just found them on the AKC website.

            The people who believe it then don’t bother and find the less ethical breeders.

            Is there truth to this? I know about how to select a breeder and what to look for. I have never purchased a purebred dog as my one and only dog so far was an adoption.
            I don't think that true, although it may depend on the breed. I sold 1 puppy from my Dec litter to someone from AKC marketplace. The puppy was very sensitive, and the home she went to was a perfect fit, a better fit than a couple of people I had wanting her, that I found me through word of mouth.

            The breeder I bought my bitch from has been breeding since 1974 and has an add on marketplace. The breeders I know are more flexible than rescues in their screening process. I know a lab breeder that has several puppies into homes in high rises in Boston. They were denied by rescue because they don't have a fenced yard, but my friend sold to them because they had plans on how to meet the dogs needs. That said, the lab breeder's adult daughter was looking for a mini poodle for a pet and could not find a breeder to sell her one. As soon as they found out she grew up showing labs, they slammed the door in her face. She thinks they were afraid she was going to make doodles.

            Comment


            • Thanks for shedding light on that! Good to hear it’s not such a closed off community as people think sometimes.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GoodTimes View Post
                The average person isn't educated with regards to dogs - conformation, health, temperament, titles, ethical breeding, etc, etc. I pick apart a dog the way I would pick apart a horse, the average person sees colour, size and a wagging tail.
                You forgot to include those who are looking for a "breed" because that's what they think they want but don't do any research to learn about the breed nor where to get a puppy.
                Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                Comment


                • I think one of the difficulties is just finding good breeders. A lot dont have websites and some are just bad websites! Most breed parent clubs have a breeder directory so that is a good place to start. Mine doesn't, unfortunately. Which is too bad because people have no trouble finding bad breeders on the internet.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                    I think one of the difficulties is just finding good breeders. A lot dont have websites and some are just bad websites! Most breed parent clubs have a breeder directory so that is a good place to start. Mine doesn't, unfortunately. Which is too bad because people have no trouble finding bad breeders on the internet.
                    100% agree. I hate FB, but had to join when i was looking for a puppy because the websites were so bad or don't exist.

                    Comment


                    • Wait ... what are people agreeing or disagreeing with? There are contradictory statements.

                      Some people seem to think that most pet dog owners get their dogs from the network of reputable breeders? People think that these breeders are producing the 10's of thousands and 100's of thousands of pet dogs in various communities across the country? The breeders who are a small network, and that don't produce many litters per year? It's mathematically impossible.

                      I *know* most of the pet dogs in households around me *did not* come from high-end breeders who did all the tests and selections and so on. They just didn't.


                      Originally posted by She's Pure Gold View Post

                      Not sure of your location, but here in the northeast (US), most pet owners responsibly spay/neuter- and there actually are not enough dogs to meet the shelter demand locally. There are a number of rescue groups that regularly ship dogs up north from southern states where spaying and neutering hasn't caught on as much- and there are many, many, many dogs dropped off at shelters, caught by AC, or other horrible situations- and they get shipped up north to meet the demand. From my observations watching these groups on FB and such, the puppies and youngsters tend to get scooped up quickly, while the older ones tend to sit a little longer- but most dogs move through the process at a fairly reasonable rate, I think. So where you get your dog from may have to do with local culture, but the adopt culture is very strong up here.
                      I am in a southern state.

                      Although spaying and neutering are far more common than they were a few decades ago and are probably standard in the majority of pet homes, there is still a significant section of the population that won't do either. For many it is for cultural reasons and tradition. They see spayed/neutered animals as 'less' than unaltered animals, and they want their animal to be a sort of robust family icon. They also believe that their animal should pass along its great qualities in the neighborhood, although they do nothing about planned breeding and let the dogs decide. Statistics indicate that many of those puppies ultimately end up in shelters, are not adopted, and so many are destroyed in those shelters.

                      This is a state that does ship shelter dogs to other states to satisfy their demand for shelter dogs. It is saving hundreds of lives of dogs that go on to be excellent pets. I am continuously stunned at the lovely dogs that end up in shelters here (or abandoned). And that no one here adopts. And that end up going to some other state, leaving this mild climate for cold winters (but at least they are inside dogs), because of the demand in those states for shelter dogs that doesn't exist here. But it's wonderful that the dogs have another chance at a good home.

                      I don't know all of the reasons that it works out this way. But back to my original point, there is no question that responsible breeders cannot begin to satisfy the demand for pets in this area. And that shelters don't meet the demand either, for convoluted and irrational reasons that have to do with the preferences of dog owners rather than the supply of shelter dogs.

                      So where are the pets coming from? Its' a process of elimination - backyard breeders and puppy mills are about the only sources left to provide such a large supply of pet dogs. That is in this large geographic area, at least.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                        Some people seem to think that most pet dog owners get their dogs from the network of reputable breeders? People think that these breeders are producing the 10's of thousands and 100's of thousands of pet dogs in various communities across the country? The breeders who are a small network, and that don't produce many litters per year? It's mathematically impossible..
                        No, no one thinks that.

                        We are saying that most pet owners don't actually try to find a good breeder, even though there are good breeders out there with healthy puppies that they would place in pet homes. I also think there could be more good breeders that would breed more litters if they were convinced they could place them in good homes. Not tons more puppies, but possibly some more.

                        I've also said many times on COTH that I think there is a market for good "pets" - breeders that breed for the standard (physical and temperament), health test their breeding dogs, but don't look to attain conformation titles, or high end performance titles. That is why breeding is actually expensive, which is why I don't understand how these mixed breed designer dogs end up being sold for so much money. Who is paying that, and for god's sake, why?

                        But to put a conformation title on a lab or golden - that's $10-20K minimum in entries, travel, handlers, etc. The health testing - is less than $1K.



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                          Most breed parent clubs have a breeder directory so that is a good place to start. Mine doesn't, unfortunately.
                          Although of my two BTs, the one from the breeder directory was overall a less pleasant 'experience' than the other who came from a breeder recommended via word of mouth. So, even breed directories aren't always what they're supposed to be.

                          Trying to not be too specific about the one breeder
                          Maybe the reason I love animals so much is because the only time they have broken my heart is when they've crossed that rainbow bridge

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post

                            Although of my two BTs, the one from the breeder directory was overall a less pleasant 'experience' than the other who came from a breeder recommended via word of mouth. So, even breed directories aren't always what they're supposed to be.

                            Trying to not be too specific about the one breeder
                            The breed directory is just a list, though. It's not an endorsement, and is usually a paid advertisement. You still should get references and ask around. But in theory, it is a resource of breeders that actually care about the breed and are affiliated with the parent club - who are usually the group that identifies and recommends appropriate health testing, advances research into breed health issues, breed to the standard, and may have to agree to an ethical breeder statement (depending on the breed).

                            Plus the breed club should be helping people understand the breed to know if it's the right one for them - based on activity needs, temperament, health, lifespan, etc.

                            My breed club hasn't figured this out yet. Wonder why our membership is shrinking. Sigh. There are lots of breeders advertising out there on the internet - would be nice to steer prospective puppy owners toward the ones that aren't puppy mills...but apparently that's too crazy.

                            Comment


                            • Google leads people to multipliers too easily. Of course I want potential buyers to do their research. But breeders have to be visible. Without promotion of FCI the multipliers will win. And of course FCI has to work on their standards and support all the time - even single cases of bad experience endanger the reputation of other responsible breeders.

                              For Austria I'd say, many, many people have their dogs from dog shelter/rescue organisations. Second source I think are 'accidental litters'. There are also differences between the breeds, not only when it comes to the question, which breeds end up in shelter but also which breeds are bought via FCI and which not.

                              and: having a dog for some people seems to be a human right. Enough time, money, passion? No. Then go to a multiplier who does not ask any question and does not care about the dogs future. This lack of reflection makes me sick. Not everybody has to have a dog (or other pets) - sometimes life situation does not allow it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Flurry84 View Post
                                If able to be outside in northern winters means the dog will be outside for an extended period of time, then I would not want you to have anything other than an Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky or another truly northern breed when it is cold. Most breeds will enjoy being outside with you and hiking or playing when it is cold, but should be inside with you otherwise. And I wonder why people want dogs who do not live inside with them so that their companionship and joy can be savored.

                                I had difficulty when I showed collies because I did not leave mine outside to grow those thick show coats. Mine did their best winning in spring through fall.

                                I have often read that it is not good for dogs who are accustomed to living outdoors in cold weather to be brought inside sometimes. They are adapted to their environment. Makes sense to me, but I have no frame of reference for this.
                                Interesting point I learned recently. Not all "northern dogs" or "sled dogs" are the Malamute/Husky type. In fact, quite a lot of mushers prefer other types of mixes. A good friend an colleague has a small mid-distance sled dog team, and none of her dogs (and she's based in northern NH) are Malmutes or Huskys. Apparently, those dogs may be great in Alaska, but have specific challenges that make them difficult to keep. You can see the kinds of dogs my friend races here: http://shadypinessleddogs.com/meet-the-dogs

                                Here Be Dragons: My blog about venturing beyond the lower levels as a dressage amateur.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                                  Well, I have learned a good deal from this thread about dogs and where they come from in the modern era.
                                  I am all in support of responsible breeders, including those who limit their breeding based on the welfare of the dogs. And yet, all that said, one reason for such high prices for high quality dogs will be that the supply is nowhere near the demand for them, so people who can afford it are willing to pay to get the dog they want..
                                  None of the breeders you consider to be charging high prices are likely see any significant profit from it. I'm a veterinarian, so I certainly don't pay retail for the care my dogs receive. But, a decade ago when my first litter was in progress, I figured out that at retail rates, my co-owner and I had about 6 k invested in the litter before giving any value to the sweat equity associated with proposition. That figure did NOT include training fees and competing. But, I can spend an extra $300 per month keeping my house warmer for a litter of newborns. I don't even add up the food costs. I have more connections than I used to and we often don't really charge each other for stud fees. Non friends, I typically spend $1200 for stud fee and then even at my costs another $500 for timing the breeding and more for Fedex shipping.

                                  Agility is my passion and hobby, breeding allows me top notch dogs to compete with. It doesn't fund the hobby. I consider that my entertainment expense so to speak. I also get great joy in putting healthy puppies in to pet and performance homes.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Marshfield View Post

                                    None of the breeders you consider to be charging high prices are likely see any significant profit from it. I'm a veterinarian, so I certainly don't pay retail for the care my dogs receive. But, a decade ago when my first litter was in progress, I figured out that at retail rates, my co-owner and I had about 6 k invested in the litter before giving any value to the sweat equity associated with proposition. That figure did NOT include training fees and competing. But, I can spend an extra $300 per month keeping my house warmer for a litter of newborns. I don't even add up the food costs. I have more connections than I used to and we often don't really charge each other for stud fees. Non friends, I typically spend $1200 for stud fee and then even at my costs another $500 for timing the breeding and more for Fedex shipping.

                                    Agility is my passion and hobby, breeding allows me top notch dogs to compete with. It doesn't fund the hobby. I consider that my entertainment expense so to speak. I also get great joy in putting healthy puppies in to pet and performance homes.
                                    No doubt at all that you are right.

                                    What you say just explains further why the vast majority of dogs in this country, including those that are a breed (registered or not), are not coming from responsible breeders. Because RB's can't begin to supply the demand for dogs for all the reasons you give.

                                    So where do the dogs come from? My point is that the system creates a high incentive for the puppy mills, which are doing the dogs no favors ... but it would be terribly difficult to fix that system because of the level of demand. Educating buyers is not enough to solve the problem, because there won't be enough really well-bred dogs for them to take into their homes anyway. They end up settling for a dog that is available when they can't get (or can't afford) the one they really want.

                                    Comment


                                    • I think in our current culture and modern way of life, instant gratification is very much a thing. As others have said, people want the dog NOW. For me, I am willing to wait, but in this case I do have time constraints. I waited on a potential litter that was to be given into new homes in August, but the bitch was empty upon examination after breeding. This breeder is very reputable, has quality dogs, but I understand (from horse breeding) that these things happen and nature is at play too. I told him that I didnt' think I would be able to wait for his next potential litter in the fall.

                                      I specifically want a puppy in the summertime as my schedule is flexible and I can be at home which is very important to me when first getting a puppy. However, if that were to be not possible and I could not find a suitable breeder, I'd be ok with that as it's not something to rush into or do on impulse. I like to slowly introduce the puppy to us being away from the home and them being alone and focus on solid training. I did contact a few other breeders to see what's out there and all were willing to speak with me as "someone off the street" some did not have any puppies available, or were still expecting their litter in the coming month, or didn't have the sex (female) that I wanted. Which is fine. One breeder happened to have a few unclaimed females as the demand for males seems to be much higher at the moment and I went to visit her and her breeding program is exceptional. My puppy comes home in a few weeks.

                                      The norm here is that you go to an initial meeting with the breeder, this can be before or after puppies are born and get to know each other. That way the breeder can see if you are suitable for their dogs, and you can see if the breeder is suitable for you. This breeder that I choose is proven, has credentials, takes genetic/health testing, and the quality of the breed seriously. She also treats her animals very well. I will not give my money to someone that does otherwise.

                                      I realize not all people think this way. I have to set up the house to make sure it is puppy proof, I have to research and buy all of the goods/supplies, and make sure that I am ready with time and patience. Some people just aren't planners, aren't interested in the time and energy commitment, and view animals has "simple" creatures that don't require much care. This leads to poorly trained and sometimes neglected dogs. Or they just view a pet as a thing. I don't know how to conquer this mindset.




                                      Comment


                                      • Anatolian Shepherd Dogs love to be outside in all sorts of weather. They need to be brushed daily if living indoors and obedience trainability is not their strong suit. Otherwise perfect Large and protective but not aggressive. Active, agile but not hyper. Love to be with their humans but can be left on their own. Smart, instinctive but alas not always trainable. unless by trainable you mean housebreaking, car-riding, and "no", then yes! They are. If you mean for them to sit, down, come, balance bologna on her nose type of training, then no.
                                        Caring for Clifford, my big red dog and assorted monkeys, I mean goats. Protected by a few loyal Anatolian Shepherd Dogs and Kangals.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X