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Hardship Registration

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  • Hardship Registration

    I’m wondering if it’s possible to register a grade mare. I got her from the Amish and they told me her previous owners apparently just hauled her over, unloaded her off the trailer, and left her. That seems kinda fishy to me because she’s a well-mannered, young, athletic horse.
    She’s got too much white to be registered AQHA (plus they don’t have hardship registration as far as I know). She has wonderful conformation and temperament, and I’ve been thinking about breeding her.
    I would never intend on selling her or the foal, but I refuse to breed a grade horse for obvious reasons. So she’s gotta have papers or it’s not happening. I’ve tried contacting the people who owned her when she was a baby but they haven’t responded.
    If anyone can give me some advice that’d be much appreciated. Thanks!

  • #2
    ssoooo even though you know NOTHING about her blood lines, NEVER intend to sell the foal, a piece of paper that makes her "registered" would be what makes the difference between breeding and not breeding....MAKES ZERO SENSE. There is really no need to breed her, but If she is "a good hoss" and you have the ability to choose a "good hoss" registered daddy and means to keep "good hoss: baby WTF should a piece of paper matter?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mop View Post
      I’m wondering if it’s possible to register a grade mare. I got her from the Amish and they told me her previous owners apparently just hauled her over, unloaded her off the trailer, and left her. That seems kinda fishy to me because she’s a well-mannered, young, athletic horse.
      She’s got too much white to be registered AQHA (plus they don’t have hardship registration as far as I know). She has wonderful conformation and temperament, and I’ve been thinking about breeding her.
      I would never intend on selling her or the foal, but I refuse to breed a grade horse for obvious reasons. So she’s gotta have papers or it’s not happening. I’ve tried contacting the people who owned her when she was a baby but they haven’t responded.
      If anyone can give me some advice that’d be much appreciated. Thanks!
      May want to ask that in the breeder's forum?

      If she has some paint characteristics, pinto horse associations let you register anything just by it's paint markings.
      There are also some mixed breed associations, if you just want a certificate with her name.

      Be aware that it is very unrealistic to think you will keep her and any of her foals "forever".
      Life tends not to work quite like that.
      Responsible horse owners and especially breeders keep horses well mannered and trained and so of possibly value to someone.
      When things happen their horses can find good homes.
      They won't fall thru the cracks as one more undesirable horse, as sadly too many end up.

      Comment


      • #4
        An established show record will do her more good than hardship papers.
        I would focus on that.
        3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706 79821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081 284811174502841027019385.....

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        • #5
          You can probably register with something like the American Warmblood Society. I'm not sure it's worth it, but to each their own.

          Comment


          • #6
            To say it in a slightly nicer way... I wouldn't really expect that to happen. Breed registries are ways to track lineage and improve the qualities of the breed. There are some specific color registries I've seen but I'm skeptical of how legit they are.

            That being said, you don't have to have her registered if she is a good mare and you would like a baby from her. There ARE people out there that don't care (I'm one of them, my three best horses I've ever had were all unknown breeding) so if you had to rehome the baby it wouldn't really be an issue. I used to worried about papers with my first grade, but then I realized that she still kicked the butts of all the fancy, expensive, registered horses, so it really made no difference in the end. If you don't want to breed without papers, don't do it. If you want a baby from her, then do it. You might be limited in options from stallions, I don't really know much about breeding. But don't let papers be a deterrent from a good quality youngster.

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            • #7
              Yes, there are ways to get a horse with no pedigree registered. The American Half Quarter Horse Registry and American Warmblood Society & Sporthorse Registry, for example, don't necessarily require a pedigree. And as far as I know, being the right color is the only requirement for some of the color registries, e.g. pinto, buckskin.

              I've typed and erased my opinion several times and I guess I'll just leave it at that.


              "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
              that's even remotely true."

              Homer Simpson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 5 View Post
                An established show record will do her more good than hardship papers.
                I would focus on that.
                True enough, but in some circumstances getting papers increases opportunity to do just that. I don’t follow them particularly closely, but from what I understand the Pinto association has a fairly robust show schedule, points/end of year awards, etc. Years ago before the AKC opened up some performance classes to mixed breeds, a friend had her dog hardship registered as a Papillon so she could show obedience in recognized shows. If I had a horse that was eligible for Pinto or hardship ApHC registry, I would probably go for it, particularly if those clubs were very active in my area. The kinds of registries that basically just give you a piece of paper if you send them money, probably not, though. Like the “Blue Eyed Horse Association.” Looking at their website is making my eyes bleed, not blue.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Yeah, I get all of this. I know there’s quite a few people who don’t care if a horse is grade (I mean, myself included) but I think it’s sorta irresponsible to breed a grade horse.
                  As I’ve implied, this is pretty hypothetical. I’m entertaining the idea, but I haven’t looked at studs or done 5-panel testing yet.
                  I guess I’m just wondering what registries are 1. reputable and 2. register grade horses. I don’t know anything about the American Warmblood registry but I would think that it’s not an option because of her build (stock-type) and she’s shorter than 16 hh.
                  Does anyone have experience with the Pinto Horse Association? That may be most plausible, I guess.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mop View Post
                    I’m wondering if it’s possible to register a grade mare. I got her from the Amish and they told me her previous owners apparently just hauled her over, unloaded her off the trailer, and left her. That seems kinda fishy to me because she’s a well-mannered, young, athletic horse.
                    She’s got too much white to be registered AQHA (plus they don’t have hardship registration as far as I know). She has wonderful conformation and temperament, and I’ve been thinking about breeding her.
                    I would never intend on selling her or the foal, but I refuse to breed a grade horse for obvious reasons. So she’s gotta have papers or it’s not happening. I’ve tried contacting the people who owned her when she was a baby but they haven’t responded.
                    If anyone can give me some advice that’d be much appreciated. Thanks!
                    Although I think it’s a good idea to register her as a pinto if you intend to follow through with showing in Pinto classes or otherwise earning Pinto points to add perceived value to your horse, realistically it’s not a good idea to breed her. Getting papers doesn’t magically change her genetics. For all you know she was a miraculous genetic jackpot from two fugly, ornery beasts (even if they were purebred somethings), but all her foals are going to get the bad genes. At least some registries that allow hardship registration (including ApHC, last I checked) actually require the animal to be surgically sterilized.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think the papers issue has very little bearing on whether or not you should breed this horse.

                      MORE IMPORTANTLY, I think it is important to establish a little more information about your mare before you even consider having her reproduce. There are a couple reasons I can think of that a horse might get dropped off with the Amish, and none of them involve qualities you would want to pass on. Your mare may have good conformation and a good temperament on the ground, but how is she to ride?

                      I really doubt that a pretty paint mare with good conformation and a good temperament was just mysteriously dropped off with the Amish. Have you ridden her? I would advise that you establish that she is a decent riding horse and establish some kind of an under saddle show record with her, no matter how minor, before breeding her. This is a matter of being a responsible and ethical breeder.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mop View Post
                        I guess I’m just wondering what registries are 1. reputable and 2. register grade horses.
                        I would imagine quite a few here would consider these requirements mutually exclusive. What makes a registry reputable, particularly for breeding as opposed to showing and earning points, if not to record pedigrees?
                        "So relax! Let's have some fun out here! This game's fun, OK? Fun goddamnit." Crash Davis; Bull Durham

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
                          I really doubt that a pretty paint mare with good conformation and a good temperament was just mysteriously dropped off with the Amish. Have you ridden her? I would advise that you establish that she is a decent riding horse and establish some kind of an under saddle show record with her, no matter how minor, before breeding her. This is a matter of being a responsible and ethical breeder.
                          You make a really good point. I live in a rural area where we’ve got a couple of open/fun shows and then a few barrel racing competitions, and that’s it. My family’s never been the type to show. I primarily do trail riding, but I’ve been training her to drive and this summer I’d like to start working cows with her.

                          By no means does she live a sedentary lifestyle, but I’ve never shown before and I don’t think she has, either. I actually thought that maybe she was a burnt out gaming horse, but I brought her to an arena and she was fine loping a barrel pattern. I’m not sure why she was dumped off like that, but she truly does seem to good to be true.

                          So the verdict is I should only breed her if she has a nice show record, she’s gene tested, and registered. Seems reasonable to me, I suppose.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by MissAriel View Post

                            I would imagine quite a few here would consider these requirements mutually exclusive. What makes a registry reputable, particularly for breeding as opposed to showing and earning points, if not to record pedigrees?
                            Personally, I think a reputable registry puts genetics, temperament, and conformation over a pedigree or fancy colors. For example, and I know it’s a controversial topic, but I would never breed a HYPP nH mare.

                            Do registries like that exist, even? I feel like evaluating what constitutes a reputable/ethical registry might turn into a rabbit hole.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mop View Post

                              Personally, I think a reputable registry puts genetics, temperament, and conformation over a pedigree or fancy colors. For example, and I know it’s a controversial topic, but I would never breed a HYPP nH mare.

                              Do registries like that exist, even? I feel like evaluating what constitutes a reputable/ethical registry might turn into a rabbit hole.
                              But you’ll breed a mare from unknown origin and unknown performance just because someone is willing to register it and she’s pretty?

                              Genetics is not mutually exclusive to pedigrees FYI.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

                                But you’ll breed a mare from unknown origin and unknown performance just because someone is willing to register it and she’s pretty?

                                Genetics is not mutually exclusive to pedigrees FYI.
                                As I have said, I’m not planning on breeding her, just thinking about it.

                                I guess what I’m trying to say is a pedigree doesn’t equal good genetics.

                                I definitely want to get her gene tested (maybe the Etalon Diagnostics minipanel) before making any kind of decision.

                                But anyways, even when breeding a registered animal to another, there are always potential complications. Mutations and inheritable diseases or conformational faults that we don’t know about can and sometimes will happen.

                                I’m not trying to be ignorant, but I don’t understand how a breeding registered horse is any better than one that isn’t. Other than definitively knowing its pedigree and having futurities/breed shows (which don’t really apply in my area).

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  PtHA depending on how much white: https://ptha.net/index.php/en/associ...er-your-equine
                                  Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by mop View Post

                                    As I have said, I’m not planning on breeding her, just thinking about it.

                                    I guess what I’m trying to say is a pedigree doesn’t equal good genetics.

                                    I definitely want to get her gene tested (maybe the Etalon Diagnostics minipanel) before making any kind of decision.

                                    But anyways, even when breeding a registered animal to another, there are always potential complications. Mutations and inheritable diseases or conformational faults that we don’t know about can and sometimes will happen.

                                    I’m not trying to be ignorant, but I don’t understand how a breeding registered horse is any better than one that isn’t. Other than definitively knowing its pedigree and having futurities/breed shows (which don’t really apply in my area).
                                    There’s more to breeding than genetic issues that can be inherited. Have you ridden her? You tied your registration question in with breeding and stated that’s why you want her registered. That sounds like “planning” and “thinking” about breeding to me.

                                    ETA: I saw the post about riding her. OP unless your mare is exceptional in performance and has no genetic anomalies that are inheritable, I wouldn’t breed.
                                    Last edited by Denali6298; May. 9, 2019, 06:50 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Denali beat me to it - the purpose of recording pedigrees is to provide a record of the genetics. It also provides a way to trace back issues when they are discovered - HYPP and WFFS, for example.

                                      I would say a reputable registry is one that considers pedigree as well as conformation, temperament and movement. In the US you can register a foal just on the basis of parentage, but in most European warmblood registries you must also present the young stock for evaluation before they are registered and accepted for future breeding stock.

                                      Given that you don't know much about this mare, testing for genetic faults is a good idea. I would chose UCDavis or Animal Genetics over Etalon, however.
                                      "So relax! Let's have some fun out here! This game's fun, OK? Fun goddamnit." Crash Davis; Bull Durham

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by mop View Post

                                        As I have said, I’m not planning on breeding her, just thinking about it.

                                        I guess what I’m trying to say is a pedigree doesn’t equal good genetics.

                                        I definitely want to get her gene tested (maybe the Etalon Diagnostics minipanel) before making any kind of decision.

                                        But anyways, even when breeding a registered animal to another, there are always potential complications. Mutations and inheritable diseases or conformational faults that we don’t know about can and sometimes will happen.

                                        I’m not trying to be ignorant, but I don’t understand how a breeding registered horse is any better than one that isn’t. Other than definitively knowing its pedigree and having futurities/breed shows (which don’t really apply in my area).
                                        I've seen a "pedigree unknown but appears purebred" black Lab that, bred to a very nice UKC registered black Lab, produced puppies-- some that looked like Labs, some that looked sort of like German Shepherds, one that mostly looked like a Pointer. Where did the pointy ears and fawn coloring and spots come from? God only knows. And they all made great pets. But you don't have any idea what's in your mare's pedigree either, and a horse that gets a drafty head and Arab body and halter QH feet from God knows where is a lot harder to manage then a goofy looking dog. It may be that your mare is super nice and the optimal result from whatever lines produced her. The not so optimal results might still be passed to her foals.

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