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It’s never the horse - Always the rider!

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  • KBC
    started a topic It’s never the horse - Always the rider!

    It’s never the horse - Always the rider!

    A friend shared this

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    and was taking exception to the sentiment, her take is that it is ALWAYS the rider.

    Now coming fri the UK, where so much riding is done on the roads I am used to wearing a tabard, mine just read “please past wide and slow” which prompted my father to ask if that was an instruction or a description”

    My belief is that horses can indeed be twats, not always the rider, I mean after 15 minutes warming up in an arena I had no expectation that the mounting block, the one I had mounted from, and had stood perfectly still in the same place, would suddenly turn into a monster that could not be approached. That was red head mare, doing her thing...At the same time I admit that our continuing issues at the ‘scary’ end of the arena where to a large extent a rider issue....

    So is it ALWAYS the rider?


  • KBC
    replied
    Originally posted by abrant View Post

    But I own a pony and a chestnut mare so clearly I'm a little unhinged


    Just a little? You are a brave person.

    Leave a comment:


  • Haylter
    replied
    OK so I would sssoooo wear this jacket!!! The problem between horses and motors is a severe and dangerous "across the pond" from us in the States...I can TOTALLY understand why they printed something that would get drivers to actually read it, give riders some "street cred" if you will like they are not being a bunch of whiney sissies, not blaming or challenging drivers more like saying "oh my horse is a freeking twat waffle!!! I am sure you intend to do what is "normally safe" but please give us extra space."

    Leave a comment:


  • chestnutmarebeware
    replied
    Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
    Some horses are sometimes just twats - regardless of the rider’s skill or experience. Why is this such a big deal? The jacket is hilarious
    I couldn't agree more, and I'm DYING for one of those jackets!

    Leave a comment:


  • abrant
    replied
    Clearly the point is to put something out there that drivers might actually pay attention to. Often giving them a laugh is a good way to accomplish that.

    But in general. I love a well trained very attentive forward horse. I do not appreciate a horse who has been broke to the point of complete learned helplessness. The trade-off is that my pony is not really afraid to be an a-hole sometimes and my mare will often provide facial commentary on the other horses in the ring. My intention was to keep them responsive and so sometimes the response to external stimulus is not exactly what I'm looking for. It reminds me to ask differently (usually more quietly) or do more foundation work so the correct answer becomes easy, but I want them to keep trying.

    For example if my horse is afraid of something in the corner of the arena, I'm going to do all my lateral work and 10m circles down there to use that energy and engage that errant attention. I'm not going to spend hours erasing the flight instinct when I can use it instead.

    But as a personal horse, that's what I want. I want a horse looking to give an answer to everything. I shared a barn with a small riding school for a while and the horses would stand tied for hours doing lesson after lesson without a twitch of the ear.

    ​​​​​​On the surface, you would say "these horses are much better than yours they're not scared of anything and they never move a muscle without being asked" but a horse I have to constantly convince to work with me who bring no enthusiasm to the table is not what I'm looking for in this hobby.

    And it should be noted that there are likely horses that bring all things to the table... They're just not in my price range

    But I own a pony and a chestnut mare so clearly I'm a little unhinged

    Leave a comment:


  • xeroxchick
    replied
    It's always the rider, but the rider might not be right for a particular horse. Overhorsed. Sometimes difficult horses aren't talented enough to be worth the time for the rider that can ride them.

    Leave a comment:


  • KBC
    replied
    Saw this posted as a reply someone with issues on another board

    The OP's responses should go in a FAQ of how not to ask questions on a forum. I wasn't going to respond but I feel bad for her horse so in light of that, here is my response.

    Dear "horse of **********( it has come to our attention that you have an owner problem. Please replace your current owner with a new one and then contact us again and we can assist you with your other issues that seem to be rooted in anxiety. We feel your pain, truly we do, but we can't do much for you until you first cure your human problem that is preventing you from progressing with solutions to your other issues. - Sincerely, Trainers who have been training horses professionally since before your current owner was born.

    Leave a comment:


  • beau159
    replied
    Originally posted by thoroughbred21 View Post

    I think it is not always the rider - it can be something else that is being done with the horse being handled. I had an OTTB who quite suddenly started being resistant, anxious, spooky(er) and head-shy, and it was down to a new barn worker who grabbed ears and generally roughed up horses. He broke a leather halter in cross-ties and we moved that weekend.
    Which is still the rider! Just not the horse's rider.... (The word "rider" can be used interchangeably with "anyone who handles the horse".)

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post

    I am not judging - what someone chooses to do with their horses is their business. But for my own students, I emphasize that language matters. What we say sets the tone for what we feel, which lays the ground for how we respond. As an instructor, I choose my words very carefully because not only am I teaching another person how to do something, but I am a role model for them.

    Some feel that's extreme, and that's okay - working with horses is essentially learning to speak another language, and anyone who has learned another language other than their native one knows how much words matter.
    I completely respect that! That was the big reason I started wearing a helmet, I was never super strict about it until I had to give lessons as a job at a camp and had a big group of kids wanting to do what I did. Makes you very aware of your behavior when you know it will influence what others will do.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuzieQNutter
    replied
    Originally posted by thoroughbred21 View Post

    I think it is not always the rider - it can be something else that is being done with the horse being handled. I had an OTTB who quite suddenly started being resistant, anxious, spooky(er) and head-shy, and it was down to a new barn worker who grabbed ears and generally roughed up horses. He broke a leather halter in cross-ties and we moved that weekend.
    As I said above the saying is It is never the horses fault. It doesn't have to be the rider. It can be anyone handling the horse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abbie.S
    replied
    Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post
    That being said...enforcing the idea to kids that horses don't act like jerks to be jerks, that they don't specifically go out to try to do things "wrong", is a very good thing to be teaching! Don't judge too harshly people that do jokingly call their own horses idiots or jerks sometimes though, we don't necessarily actually mean it!
    I am not judging - what someone chooses to do with their horses is their business. But for my own students, I emphasize that language matters. What we say sets the tone for what we feel, which lays the ground for how we respond. As an instructor, I choose my words very carefully because not only am I teaching another person how to do something, but I am a role model for them.

    Some feel that's extreme, and that's okay - working with horses is essentially learning to speak another language, and anyone who has learned another language other than their native one knows how much words matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • merrygoround
    replied
    Originally posted by KBC View Post
    As so many things with language, in the UK it is seen as not that offensive

    The word twat is widely used as a derogatory epithet, especially in British English, referring to a person considered obnoxious or stupid. It is also used informally as a verb in British English to mean "to hit or punch a person".

    Funny that the word P*ssy so often starred out over here on boards is never an offensive term, just a mild word....


    Meanings and the strength of bad words vary from place to place, and over time...
    When in Rome, do as the Romans do, speak as the Romans speak. That way you'll commit no "faux pas'.

    Leave a comment:


  • thoroughbred21
    replied
    Originally posted by beau159 View Post

    99% of the time it is the rider and how they have trained the horse, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

    There are rare horses that are, shall we say, neurologically wired wrong, but they are indeed rare. Fortunately, I've only had experience with one of those in the 30+ years I've been involved with horses. And I hope I never have another.
    I think it is not always the rider - it can be something else that is being done with the horse being handled. I had an OTTB who quite suddenly started being resistant, anxious, spooky(er) and head-shy, and it was down to a new barn worker who grabbed ears and generally roughed up horses. He broke a leather halter in cross-ties and we moved that weekend.

    Leave a comment:


  • beau159
    replied
    Originally posted by KBC View Post

    So is it ALWAYS the rider?
    99% of the time it is the rider and how they have trained the horse, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

    There are rare horses that are, shall we say, neurologically wired wrong, but they are indeed rare. Fortunately, I've only had experience with one of those in the 30+ years I've been involved with horses. And I hope I never have another.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post
    I have this sort of conversation a lot with newer students.

    Believing a horse can be a "twat" - or anything else, for that matter - means you have the believe the horse is capable of rationalizing his response to any given thing we ask or do. It means you have to believe that, to some degree, the horse can plan in advance, scheme or otherwise decide to act a certain way and/or that the horse can hold a grudge of some kind. We know horses cannot and do not do this and yet so many people are convinced their horses can. That's because we are used to dealing with people, who absolutely can and DO do all of those things.

    Horses can't plan in advance or decide to be a jerk just for the heck of it. What they CAN do is learn, by testing boundaries - which is what every horse ever in existence does every moment of every interaction with another horse or a human - what is acceptable and what is not. What the CAN do is maintain wills and desires of their own and not be 100% convinced the the will of the rider is more important than theirs. They are never "right" or "wrong" in doing either of these things - it's just how horses are, it's what they do, and the quicker people learn that, the quicker they stop trying to coerce their horses into doing things and start working to make their idea the animal's idea. It's the most powerful form of mind control there is.

    I have more respect for my horses and my relationship with them than to where a jacket like that.
    I actually completely agree, but I still call my boy an idiot sometimes. It's kind of like how I have several friends that are moms with toddlers. Their kids are too young to know any better, but would test their boundaries in little ways, and when they were being especially testing the moms would call them "little sh**s", quite lovingly but still. It's not that they actually think they are bad, or purposefully being bad. It's just a half-venting, half joking "omg they are driving me nuts" kind of thing. Just because you say your horse is acting like a jerk doesn't mean you ACTUALLY think he is really just being a jerk to be a jerk.

    Like, last week, my young horse was especially spooky one day. He normally isn't a spooky horse, and it was one of those super hot days that you would THINK they would be too hot to act up much. For some reason, he was just very fresh. Bolted, bucks ("bucks", more like), spooks, just being silly. I know he was just fresh, probably not really wanting to have to focus and do things, he hadn't REALLY wanted to leave his pasture that day. I didn't blame him for his behavior. We worked through it. But I still told him he was being an idiot for being so spooky.

    That being said...enforcing the idea to kids that horses don't act like jerks to be jerks, that they don't specifically go out to try to do things "wrong", is a very good thing to be teaching! Don't judge too harshly people that do jokingly call their own horses idiots or jerks sometimes though, we don't necessarily actually mean it!

    Leave a comment:


  • Abbie.S
    replied
    I have this sort of conversation a lot with newer students.

    Believing a horse can be a "twat" - or anything else, for that matter - means you have the believe the horse is capable of rationalizing his response to any given thing we ask or do. It means you have to believe that, to some degree, the horse can plan in advance, scheme or otherwise decide to act a certain way and/or that the horse can hold a grudge of some kind. We know horses cannot and do not do this and yet so many people are convinced their horses can. That's because we are used to dealing with people, who absolutely can and DO do all of those things.

    Horses can't plan in advance or decide to be a jerk just for the heck of it. What they CAN do is learn, by testing boundaries - which is what every horse ever in existence does every moment of every interaction with another horse or a human - what is acceptable and what is not. What the CAN do is maintain wills and desires of their own and not be 100% convinced the the will of the rider is more important than theirs. They are never "right" or "wrong" in doing either of these things - it's just how horses are, it's what they do, and the quicker people learn that, the quicker they stop trying to coerce their horses into doing things and start working to make their idea the animal's idea. It's the most powerful form of mind control there is.

    I have more respect for my horses and my relationship with them than to where a jacket like that.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuzieQNutter
    replied
    Originally posted by Guilherme View Post

    I don't "blame" the horse. That requires making a moral or ethical judgement. In my mishap there were only two parties and I didn't err but ended up on the ground, anyway. So the horse gets call on this one, if a call is to be made. Again, we can argue about that but it if was either me or him and it wasn't me then our remaining choices are few.

    After we were done I didn't beat him or cut is grain ration or put him a dry lot or stall without water or anything else to "punish." I just make the observation that he screwed up, not me. Screwups happen. THAT is life.

    G.
    The actual saying is it is Never the horses fault. This is referring to what they are trying to do. The best for you or the worst for you. It does not refer to a horse tripping, falling, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorilu
    replied
    SOmetimes it's not the horse or the rider, but the COMBINATION. And we ALL know that horses have their resistances and evasions - while we are responsible for dealing with them, the rider does not CAUSE them...... I spent too many years with the wrong horse for me because I was convinced it was ALWAYS my fault that he bolted on occasion without provocation. What a difference when I finally let him go and got the right horse. (and yes he played those games with the new owners as well. He was sold with FULL disclosure.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Beck
    replied
    In North America "twat" is a very rude term for vagina (as noted above), "fanny" is equivalent to "butt" or "bum" and as such is only marginally offensive relatively.

    So odd that the two should be more or less switched across the pond.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guilherme
    replied
    Originally posted by Christa P View Post

    The third option is neither of you were at fault. Sometimes no one is to blame except maybe mother nature.
    Quite possible. But that "third option" is an infinitesimally small probability. So do you spend your time looking for 99.9%+++ probable solutions to a problem or that highly elusive .1%? Where is the most economical way to spend you time, effort and money?

    G.

    Leave a comment:

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