Stallion Spotlight

Fasino-12-16-07-175

Real Estate Spotlight

Grand 2 story entry
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Horse Shopping: Question About Ethics--Of the Buyer

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Horse Shopping: Question About Ethics--Of the Buyer

    I tried a gelding recently. I'd already heard that he had to be led into the show ring on a lead rope, wouldn't go in on his own. I watched a class with his regular rider. Yes, they led him in. When the rider tried to send him forward, his ears pinned and he bucked a little. Rider tapped him with the whip, horse said "Oh, all right," and started the course. Rider made all kinds of mistakes but the horse knew his job and covered. When it was time for me to try him, horse was presented all tacked up and ready to go. Again, objections. But once jumping commenced, all heart, great technique, knew his job.

    Then: Afterwards, I untacked the horse to do a once-over of his body. Yikes--on one side the saddle had rubbed him right down to the skin. It had apparently never occurred to rider or trainer that the horse's behavior might be the result of pain from a poorly fitted saddle.

    I said nothing and still feel bad about it. But my trainer was there, the other trainer was there...I guess I got intimidated and also confused about the right thing to do. Nobody had asked for my advice, and people tend to resent unsolicited advice, especially when it could be construed as critical. In a situation where I'm just trying a horse, this kind of thing may come up again. What should I do--say something and try for tact, or just keep my mouth shut? As I say, I still feel rotten about the whole thing. Poor horse.

  • #2
    I would have spoken up. Not in a mean way but made note of it just in case for some crazy reason they didn't know it was there.

    Comment


    • #3
      I am not sure that it is your place to suggest that his behavior is the result of poorly fitting tack... BUT you certainly are within your rights as a potential buyer to point out that you are concerned that rubs like his often don't come without additional pain below the surface of a superficial rub mark. She may get the point...

      Comment


      • #4
        As a buyer, and buying from an actual training barn situation, you are under no ethical responsibility to diagnose what is wrong with the horses that are being presented for sale. If they don't know better then they aren't going to listen to you.

        With self-styled knowledgeable owners I also wouldn't comment on run forward heels, hunters bump, bulgy necks, going short behind, etc. I would just say thank you and walk away.

        If you went to see an absolute newbie greenie clueless person who didn't know horses needed their feet trimmed or why their horses were so skinny, you might want to make some helpful suggestions. Or call animal control when you got home.

        As far as saddle rub, who knows. I don't think horse would be jumping so well if he was so sore he needed to be led into the ring. That's probably a long term behaviorial issue and may speak to larger questions of training and horsemaship.

        If the rub isn't raw, it might not be hurting. Winter hair can be fragile. Also you don't know that it is this saddle that caused the rub. Could be another piece of gear altogether.

        I agree it's a sign of questionable management for them to let this happen, but I expect there are a lot of red flags here.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would have looked at my trainer, looked at bald patch, back n forth until my trainer "picked up what I was putting down" and let them take the lead...mmmmmayyyybbeeee played dumb and casually asked my trainer "oh think a little MTG will fix that or Corona?" all innocent and sweet as pie. Not saying "OH MY GOD THE ELEPHANT BARELY FITS IN THIS ROOM DON"T LET IT STEP ON YOU" but more like "Hey my eyes may be playing tricks on me...Did you see that?" This sounds more like a case of rain rot or other skin condition than rubbing of saddle, but does explain saint horse's reluctant behavior.It was not wrong of you to keep your mouth shut, especially since you had trainer ie professional with you...if you were looking at a house with your realtor and both walked into a room with a piece of plywood in the middle of a wall who would you expect to ask why it was there?

          Comment


          • #6
            I would have just said something like “oh, hey, I’m sure you know, but it looks like he’s got something going on here.” It wouldn’t be weird to make a comment about something you didn’t see when the saddle was on.

            Comment


            • #7
              If I was seriously interested in a horse I would maybe want to ask some questions and do some problem solving. But if I'd already decided to walk away, I would just silently roll my eyes. I'm sure they knew about the rub.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd have a problem with anyone who would tack up a horse for someone to ride and there was a sore under the saddle. What sort of behav are you potenially setting the rider up for? Good grief.

                I would have pointed out the rub. Tactfully; but it would have been mentioned.
                No matter where you go, there you are

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Beck View Post
                  I'd have a problem with anyone who would tack up a horse for someone to ride and there was a sore under the saddle. What sort of behav are you potenially setting the rider up for? Good grief.

                  I would have pointed out the rub. Tactfully; but it would have been mentioned.
                  I agree its a red flag. And there might be times I wanted to shake that red flag a little. When were his hooves last trimmed? Hmmm, what's the blood dropping from his mouth? I noticed he gives a little hop every time he goes into the canter. Etc.

                  I might or might not say these things, because I am trying to never act on my basic stir the pot impulses.

                  But I would never think that I had an ethical obligation to point out poor horse keeping to a pro trainer who knows what they are doing and is making deliberate choices, whether good or bad.

                  In other words, OP, yeah you missed a good chance to let the trainer see they weren't impressing you. But you did not fail in any ethical obligations because clearly they knew about the rub. That is why they saddled him up before you got there.

                  My hunch is horse is being sold on because he is showing increasingly bad behavior for his rider and much much more is wrong than the rub.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I probably would have said something before really thinking about if I should or not. I recently went to look at a horse with someone. The horse was barefoot and hadn't been trimmed for at least 6 months, probably more, and had the long toes, flares and 2 inch toe crack that goes along with that. The horse was not a good fit, and we thought we saw an off step once in a while (maybe from those long flares and toe crack?). As we were finishing up, I said to the seller "you might want to do something about those toe cracks before they get any worse". She said "she's a little overdue for a trim" and then went on to tell us how great her feet are.

                    So, say something or don't say something - if the seller is turning a blind eye to it, it probably doesn't matter either way.
                    Last edited by Mango20; May. 2, 2019, 11:24 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dont feel bad OP. First, as was pointed out, the owner likely knows and has dismissed it as unimportant. Second, many of us who say "I would have said..." have also been in the position in which they didnt actually say anything and later regretted it.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Thanks for all your thoughts on this. I take some comfort from the idea that the trainer probably did know about the raw spot and dismissed it, so my piping up about it would only have elicited a shrug. About what was really causing the horse's behavior, who knows really. Could have been the saddle, could have been something else. But there was no denying that sore spot, and my question centered on the "if you see something, say something" idea--when to act on it and when not to. Would I be helping someone who might welcome a heads-up, or would I--as Scribbler suggested-- be letting the trainer know I was unimpressed? Or, worse, coming off as an annoying know-it-all? I guess I'll decide case by case.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Was it "raw" or just the hair rubbed off? Those are two entirely different things. Hair rubbed off is possibly an extremely minor issue. Either way, it's still entirely possible that this horse's dislike of entering the ring is a behavioral issue that is not rooted in pain. Without knowing the horse well, you can't say if that rub is a new thing or has coincided with his dislike of entering the ring. Unless there is an obvious horse welfare issue, I think leaving it at a polite remark is the best course of action.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not my horse, not my problem.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think "Is this new?" is a pretty safe way of calling attention to something like this. IMO, it'd be hard to read that as judgmental or accusatory and put people on the defensive right off the bat (unless there was deliberately unethical stuff happening). They saw you looking over the horse as a buyer, so I'd expect them to be prepared to answer questions about things you found.

                              It also implicitly assumes they know about it, or if they don't they have an opening to say "must be new", etc. etc. If they did know about it, then you have an opening to start asking about how they are managing it.

                              With or without seeing the rub, I think you were also well within your right to ask about how they had been managing the behavior issue, if they had looked for a relationship to saddle fit or other physical issues, if it had been escalating, etc.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Raw or hair rubbed off? Thats a big difference. I like the "is this new?" line.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  With things like this you can ask questions like "oh I see he has a rub - have you found that he's difficult to fit tack to, or is there a particular brand that is good vs bad?" As a buyer, this is a fair question. Some horses do excellently with certain brands of tack or blankets due to shape and cuts. Some buyers need to factor in prices to outfit their potential new horse (or may have stuff that they're wondering will work for a horse). It's an innocuous way to open the door and feel out what the situation is.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I would not have appreciated that a seller let me ride their horse with a sore under his saddle. They were unethical to let you ride him. It's not likely that it could have happened in the course of one class and your ride. When you were looking him over and spotted the sore - you might have just said "Oh, you have a booboo" and let it go at that.

                                    Bringing up behavior, performance or conformation issues during a prospective sale inspection would tell me the buyer was trying to negotiate the price down. That is ok if that is what you, as the buyer, want to do. But, if you don't like what you see - say thank you and walk away.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Some of us would have no trouble speaking up, protocol or not.



                                      But in general its a good idea to say " Thank You", and just go.
                                      Last edited by merrygoround; May. 4, 2019, 03:36 PM.
                                      Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                      Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        If I have decided I am not interested in the horse, I say nothing. If I still might be, then I ask questions. "Is this new?" is a good way to broach it. When shopping with a client, I would also be happy if they said "can you take a look at this" to me, so I can see the issue.
                                        Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X