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breakfast discussion lead to question: Have you seen a horse that just had white front feet without one or both rear feet being white?

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  • breakfast discussion lead to question: Have you seen a horse that just had white front feet without one or both rear feet being white?

    This morning while talking a question formulated regarding white feet on horses. Simple question but really do not remember seeing a horse with just white front feet without one of both rear feet being white.

    I looked at some photos but none had white only fronts

    So, I pretty sure they are out there and since its another rainy day and cold was wondering if any one had a photo of a horse who had white fronts without with rears

  • kiwichick
    replied
    This is one of mine
    the only one i recall having. 2 front stockings.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • chestnutmarebeware
    replied
    Originally posted by TheJenners View Post

    Very interesting... Esp seeing as I have two bay geldings, one ISH and one Morgan, the former with a left hind sock and blaze and the latter with a left hind anklet and barely there star Plus Simkie's data above shows way more hinds, face than fronts, face (21 to 4) and lefts, face has more represented than rights, face (10 to 2), so out of her small sample size of only 2007 bay mares... five to one with some number fudging for hinds only versus fronts only, and of that even, more only lefts than only rights.
    Both my chestnut mares, one a TB and one a breeding stock (or whatever they call it now) APHA have a single white hind leg, and they're both on the right. The brown TB mare also has a single hind sock, but on the left. All three have white on their faces, varying from a star to a star/stripe to a full-on, nearly bald face.

    I also had a gray TB mare with a single right hind stocking that passed away several years ago. So my personal count is 75% right hind whites and 25% left hind whites.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Doolittle
    replied
    Originally posted by jawa View Post
    Ages ago I read an article on the coloration of guiena pigs being determined by genetics, but also by the environment within the mother's womb. The mother had to produce a certain chemical/hormone in order for the different coat colors to be expressed.

    A few years ago, a local vet who was big into dog reproduction took an egg from a female lab, fertilized it with the sperm from a male lab and then transferred that embryo to a hound dog. The resulting puppy (named ET for embryo transfer) came out with with a dark yellow coat and 4 white socks. Neither the male or female lab had any white markings.

    So...here's a question for the genetic gurus here. Embryo transfer is a thing for some of the high end sport horses. Would the environment of the surrogate affect the outcome of the coloration of the foal?
    Wow, that's interesting!

    Another thing I've read is that the distribution of white markings is often affected by how the fetus is positioned in the uterus, how much sun exposure the mother had, etc. (I tried to Google this but nothing came up), while the markings themselves are largely genetic.

    My mare has a half sibling with an interesting facial marking: it looks like there was supposed to be a large star on her forehead, but only the 4 corners of the star showed up as white markings - the middle was dark. Her owner named her Estrella (Spanish for star), and her marking looks like a constellation.

    In the case of horses and dogs who are cloned (I guess you would call them "siblings", but not really?), the clones all have white markings similar to the original "parent", but distributed differently. Examples are Cruising and Sapphire - both of these horses have produced several clones that are the same color as the "original", but whose markings are slightly different - for example, they all have blazes but the blazes are not identical.

    I can't imagine that ET horses would take on the color of the recipient mare - but that's fascinating about the ET dog.

    This has certainly morphed into an interesting discussion, if a little OT!

    (I'm now looking even more closely at horses' markings, LOL! As I mentioned in a previous post I've always noticed that rear legs more often have white markings/left legs more often have white markings - but figured that was anecdotal; apparently it's actually verifiable.)

    Leave a comment:


  • jawa
    replied
    Ages ago I read an article on the coloration of guiena pigs being determined by genetics, but also by the environment within the mother's womb. The mother had to produce a certain chemical/hormone in order for the different coat colors to be expressed.

    A few years ago, a local vet who was big into dog reproduction took an egg from a female lab, fertilized it with the sperm from a male lab and then transferred that embryo to a hound dog. The resulting puppy (named ET for embryo transfer) came out with with a dark yellow coat and 4 white socks. Neither the male or female lab had any white markings.

    So...here's a question for the genetic gurus here. Embryo transfer is a thing for some of the high end sport horses. Would the environment of the surrogate affect the outcome of the coloration of the foal?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheJenners
    replied
    Very interesting... Esp seeing as I have two bay geldings, one ISH and one Morgan, the former with a left hind sock and blaze and the latter with a left hind anklet and barely there star Plus Simkie's data above shows way more hinds, face than fronts, face (21 to 4) and lefts, face has more represented than rights, face (10 to 2), so out of her small sample size of only 2007 bay mares... five to one with some number fudging for hinds only versus fronts only, and of that even, more only lefts than only rights.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuzieQNutter
    replied
    Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post
    Sim has at least one front white hoof



    Stars has ar least one white front hoof

    Okay scratch that as I actually went and looked. Stars hoof is mostly white and he has a small sock all the way around and the hair appears white all the way around but there is a large black stripe on the side of the hoof.

    Sim has smaller black stripes, so his hoof appears white but when you actually look nope. The other front hoof is also striped.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Doolittle
    replied
    Hooves are black or white based on the skin color at the coronet band from which they originate: if a plain white sock (no ermine spots), the skin of the pastern is pink so the hoof is white. If there are ermine spots, the part of the hoof growing from the area of the pastern with dark hair (the spot) produces a dark pigmented hoof - this is why hooves with ermine spots are often striped.

    I have 2 mares (mother and daughter), both have two white socks with ermine spots, and stripes on those hooves.

    Sometimes ermine spots can "cluster" around the coronary band (with no pigment break and no pink skin) and produce an entirely black hoof.

    But that's what you're seeing

    And I too find color genetics fascinating!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mango20
    replied
    In my current herd of 4, conveniently napping where I can see them right now, I have:
    1. tiny coronet with earmine spots (hind) all black hooves
    2. two rear socks with white hooves (black/brown in front)
    3. left front and left hind socks with one white hoof and one striped.
    4. pinto with two high front stockings, one rear sock. at least one ermine spot up front. Dark leg has a striped hoof, the rest are white (there may be some other stripes)

    Leave a comment:


  • rockonxox
    replied
    Blugal that horse is lovely and the markings do stand out!

    Leave a comment:


  • Xanthoria
    replied
    Originally posted by clanter View Post

    my daughter says if they have a white sock they have to have a white hoof
    I'd usually agree but my gelding has three short socks, lots of ermine, and totally black hooves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Uncorked
    replied
    Interesting topic. Years ago in college I took a graduate level class in entomology. We discussed pattern formation....what turns on and off colors? At that time there was a lot of discussion that of course genetics plays a part but there has to be another component - some kind of protein/hormone gradient system that tells the pigments when to start and stop - how are the patterns on a monarch butterfly determined or the stripes on a tiger. It was fascinating.

    What is interesting is that at the same time there was research going on: splitting horse embryos so in essence the two foals were identical twins genetically......however their white markings were neither identical nor mirror images but they both did have white markings. So genetics yes but there is more to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Palm Beach
    replied
    Originally posted by Arelle View Post

    Is there a point you're trying to prove or are you just wanting to argue with me on my definition of "rare" versus your definition of it?

    I answered the OP based on my experience and knowledge and you've commented and argued and tried to put up statistics to prove me wrong with each post.
    Don't sweat it. I tend to agree with you based on my personal experience with tbs - and I can't even begin to count the thousands I've seen. I personally like white fronts with no white hinds, I think it's cute, so it does catch my attention. But AQHA is the largest breed registry in the world, and more permissive of allowing other breeds to cross, so I would not base assumptions on the US JC statistics. Ultimately, no one is counting socks so we will probably never know how "rare" two white fronts/no hinds is. And of course, we'd have to assign a number to "rare" ie. 5% of the population or whatever.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arelle
    replied
    Originally posted by Simkie View Post

    I'm looking for your interpretation of actual DATA versus your personal experience and memory from a few select horses. Sure, none of the horses in my barn have front white with no hind white, either, but I don't take that as an indication that's it's rare. And I can tell you that while I've eyeballed probably thousands of horses in my lifetime, I don't have the photographic memory to state how many of those have front white without hind white.

    Do you have actual data from APHA to share? Or just your recollection and photos of what stands in your barn?
    I interpreted the DATA you provided and you're still bitching.

    APHA doesn't keep records like the JC does - and the studies that I have seen with DATA don't keep records like the JC does. APHA records whether a horse is overo, tobiano, or solid - there isn't even a differentiation between splash, lwo, or a dominant white spotting patterns within their systems. The white studies that I have seen conducted and sat in seminars discussing with the scientists that are conducting them are focused on overall percentage of white versus independent location of white, but did dive into particular spotting alleles. I did a whole outline based on the last seminar, but the DATA is as follows:
    N = 351 horses (total sample at random)
    - 14.25% - No known spotting allele (RR and SPB horses)
    - 33.59% - Overo type alleles
    - 11.67% - Splash/Sabino alleles
    - 27.91% - Tobiano/Tovero alleles
    - 12.53% - Ws-Only alleles

    SPB horses, N=84
    - 54.76% - No known spotting allele
    - 8.33% - Overo spotting allele
    - 5.95% - Splash/Sabino allele
    - 30.95% - Ws-Only allele

    QH Parents of APHA horses (estimated)
    - 64.29% - No known spotting allele
    - 4.76% - Overo spotting allele
    - 3.57% - Splash/Sabino spotting allele
    - ? - Ws-Only allele (missed the percentage)

    QH x APHA crosses
    - 1.8x more solids produced
    - 2.4x fewer tobiano patterns produced

    What percent of overo horses in the study are "spotted"?
    37 of the 351 horses carried an "O" allele only. Of those, 33 were O/N overo, 4 were O/N solid. 87.9% of O/N registered RR horses are due ONLY to the one copy of the "O" allele.

    What about...?
    SW/N - 20 horses
    - 80% overo, 20% solid
    W20/N - 40 horses
    - 42.5% overo, 57.5% solid

    Are there new spotting patterns we can't detect? Of the 351 horses included in this study, only 1 was RR and had no known spotting allele and could not be explained by socks/blaze alone. There were 3 "overo" horses which had no alleles or patterns. (I believe these qualified via socks/blaze - but am not 100% certain)
    Sorry, sis. I'm doing the best with what I got - and based on my experience, based on the other people on this thread also weighing in with theirs in agreement that if it's not rare it's certainly unusual.

    Thanks for the discussion, OP! I want to be at your breakfast table for conversations!

    Leave a comment:


  • NancyM
    replied
    It's a bit rare, but I've known a few.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blugal
    replied
    There's a horse at my barn with two high front stockings, a stripe and belly splash. He's an Oldenburg. It stands out to me, in my experience, as unusual to have fronts only.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • clairebear_nz
    replied
    I've got an OTTB who has a snip and a star and a white LF but no white behind. His full sister has exactly the same markings (but was an infinitely better racehorse....).

    Leave a comment:


  • Simkie
    replied
    Originally posted by Arelle View Post

    Is there a point you're trying to prove or are you just wanting to argue with me on my definition of "rare" versus your definition of it?

    I maintain that front white with no hind white is unusual and uncommon in my personal experience and based on what I know about my breed of choice, which is paints and to a larger degree stock breeds in general. I don't study thoroughbred genetics, thus I don't have a horse in that fight.
    I'm looking for your interpretation of actual DATA versus your personal experience and memory from a few select horses. Sure, none of the horses in my barn have front white with no hind white, either, but I don't take that as an indication that's it's rare. And I can tell you that while I've eyeballed probably thousands of horses in my lifetime, I don't have the photographic memory to state how many of those have front white without hind white.

    Do you have actual data from APHA to share? Or just your recollection and photos of what stands in your barn?

    Leave a comment:


  • cayuse
    replied
    Originally posted by clanter View Post

    my daughter says if they have a white sock they have to have a white hoof
    I have heard that, too.
    But how about white with stripes? My grade pony with white socks behind had sort of dark beige hooves with multiple grey stripes. On the other hand, my Welsh pony has four high whites and brilliant white hooves. He is fun to keep clean for the show ring. High maintenance, that one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arelle
    replied
    Originally posted by Simkie View Post

    More, actually. 10 to 13. But most wouldn't consider it particularly rare.
    Is there a point you're trying to prove or are you just wanting to argue with me on my definition of "rare" versus your definition of it?

    I answered the OP based on my experience and knowledge and you've commented and argued and tried to put up statistics to prove me wrong with each post.

    I maintain that front white with no hind white is unusual and uncommon in my personal experience and based on what I know about my breed of choice, which is paints and to a larger degree stock breeds in general. I don't study thoroughbred genetics, thus I don't have a horse in that fight.

    I understand how embryos are formed, I understand the basic genetics and phenotype of white spotting genes common in stock breeds - however, I still can't tell you how my old show horse is a loudly marked overo with zero white on his hind right - as I've said from my first post in this thread - I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV.
    Click image for larger version

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    I also can't tell you how my overo filly ended up with no white socks, but white leg markings on the front of her cannon bones. Again, I'm not an expert in how DNA structures where pigment lands - I know the basics, and that's where I weigh in my commentary on a social thread on a forum for horse lovers. Since paint genes in general throw a wrench in white spotting for breeds that don't want tobiano or overo coloring - arabians, TBs, etc - I kept my original post to general embryonic development and W20 - which IS present in multiple breeds, from drafts to TBs to stock breeds.
    Click image for larger version

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    I know, anecdotally, the only two horses I have with all four legs white (who aren't tobiano) are the mother and son pair I pictured originally, and I know that comes from the W20 gene.

    It's an interesting topic - I'm sorry that you and I disagree that 6.9% is "rare" and that the difference in 10 and 13 in a sample size of 145 doesn't qualify as "almost as". Thanks for your research from JC records; it's cool information regardless of whether you think it's uncommon or not!

    Leave a comment:

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