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breakfast discussion lead to question: Have you seen a horse that just had white front feet without one or both rear feet being white?

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  • breakfast discussion lead to question: Have you seen a horse that just had white front feet without one or both rear feet being white?

    This morning while talking a question formulated regarding white feet on horses. Simple question but really do not remember seeing a horse with just white front feet without one of both rear feet being white.

    I looked at some photos but none had white only fronts

    So, I pretty sure they are out there and since its another rainy day and cold was wondering if any one had a photo of a horse who had white fronts without with rears

  • #2
    It definitely happens, and not infrequently. You can play around with the Jockey Club's tattoo lookup to get examples. No pics, but a very quick search turned up this guy:

    Manhattan Creek, K00006, Large star, extending over left eye in a point and connected broad stripe, widening on bridge of nose, narrowing to left low on bridge of nose, becoming bordered flesh colored above nostrils, extending between nostrils, covering both nostrils, ending on upper lip. Left fore: three-quarters stocking, higher on outside. Right fore: half stocking, higher on inside and in back. Median cowlick at eye level.

    Two big front stockings, and a blaze, with nothing on the rears. Only had to get six horses into the registration year for a horse with the white you're looking for

    There are also four bay mares with a tattoo that starts with K00 with white on the face and white on the front legs. Two bay geldings without the face white but with white front legs, one mare. All with a tattoo starting K00.

    Didn't check the red ones, but since white shows up better on red, there should be even more with a chestnut base.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is one of the mares that popped up. It's just the coronet on the off fore, but it's there. Nada on the hinds.

      https://www.fairgroundsphotos.com/Fa...13/i-zGDvpDt/A

      Extravaganza, K00538, Large star and connected stripe, becoming bordered flesh colored in center of face, narrowing above nostrils, becoming bordered flesh colored and ending between nostrils on bottom. Left fore: half pastern white, higher on inside, extending to bottom of ankle in back; small dark spots on coronet. Right fore: coronet and part of pastern white except on inside in front and on inside, lower on inside in back; dark spot on coronet on outside. Median cowlick above eye level.

      Comment


      • #4
        Now all these horses have significant face white for a tb! Are we seeing Splash or similar patterns here? It doesn't seem like there is a solid face or a discrete star plus front stockings? I have an interest in pinto and related white patterns.

        Comment


        • #5
          It does seems rarer than you'd think when you actually sit down and try to come up with horses you know that have it. Imothep is one that I know off hand: http://www.hyperionstud.com/stallion...photos-gallery

          Comment


          • #6

            Honestly; I think it would be rare to find just due to the way embryos develop. Granted, most of my knowledge on white pattern genes is how to INCREASE color (paint breeder) and avoiding the dreaded "almost a paint, but ain't" that has leg white, but nothing above the knees/hocks.

            "White markings in horses are formed when pigment producing cells (melanocytes) fail to migrate to their final location on an animal. The areas that are left without pigment producing cells remain white. Because pigment producing cells always migrate the same way, the areas of the body which are reached last by these cell during development are the areas of the body that are most likely to be white, ie the head and legs."1

            I'm not a biologist, so I don't know how horse embryos develop past the point of what we see in various textbooks. I haven't studied it, for sure, but it seems likely that face and hind leg white would occur prior to front leg white. I've seen plenty of horses with hind leg only white; but none that I can recall that didn't at least have some kind of coronet white on the back if their fronts were white.

            Lately, there's been decent discussion on the W20 gene which is responsible for high whites in multiple different breeds. I have several examples of W20 horses standing out in my pastures - the two photographed below have been genetically tested to carry only one copy of W20 -- no other known white pattern gene exists in either of them. W20 could be responsible for a lot of the "chrome" you tend to see in multiple breeds - but again, it tends to show on all of the legs, versus just the front two.

            In this photo, the mare up front has been tested to carry n/W20. She ALSO has a small belly spot, which is pictured. Her son, behind her, is the closest I have to a horse that has front white but not hind white - his right rear is just a small coronet white, but his left does extend up. He has NOT been genetically tested (he's a gelding, so...) but he does have a blue eye, which is not a trait of W20.
            Click image for larger version  Name:	38023576_10102025631200819_314240925729554432_o.jpg Views:	2 Size:	29.1 KB ID:	10306387



            The mare below is my three year old, who has one hind sock. She's also been genetically tested to be n/W20.
            Click image for larger version  Name:	42135609_10102067747659099_6462436053893513216_n.jpg Views:	1 Size:	16.8 KB ID:	10306388



            There are a couple of photos I found online of horses that appear to have white on the front only - but without being able to see the other side of the horse or their midline (white likes to show up under the belly!) then you can't really say for certain that it's the only white on the horse.

            I'd definitely assume it's unusual based on my knowledge of how white develops in utero!

            1 https://colorgenetics.info/equine/st...and-known-loci
            http://equinetapestry.com/2014/03/the-w20-project/
            Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arelle View Post

              I'd definitely assume it's unusual based on my knowledge of how white develops in utero!
              Clanter didn't ask for horses where the white fronts were the only white on the horse. He asked for horses with white fronts with no white hinds.

              The Jockey Club is very open with it's database and a stickler on markings, so this isn't that hard to find. Actual pics of the horses is a different story, but if you're looking for a sample of markings, it's very available. And belly spots are included in the description, if that's something you care about.

              Looking at the 2007 bay mares with a tattoo starting with K00 I found:

              Fronts only 1
              Fronts, face 4
              Hinds only 5
              Hinds, face 21
              Lefts only 0
              Lefts, face 10
              Rights only 0
              Rights, face 2
              LF RH only 0
              LF RH, face 6
              RF LH only 2
              RF LH, face 6
              All four 1
              All four, face 9
              No markings 28
              Only face Over 50

              This is in a population of 999 horses that also includes other colors and the boys. So it's not that rare for only two feet to have markings.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                Clanter didn't ask for horses where the white fronts were the only white on the horse. He asked for horses with white fronts with no white hinds.

                The Jockey Club is very open with it's database and a stickler on markings, so this isn't that hard to find. Actual pics of the horses is a different story, but if you're looking for a sample of markings, it's very available. And belly spots are included in the description, if that's something you care about.

                Looking at the 2007 bay mares with a tattoo starting with K00 I found:

                Fronts only 1
                Fronts, face 4
                Hinds only 5
                Hinds, face 21
                Lefts only 0
                Lefts, face 10
                Rights only 0
                Rights, face 2
                LF RH only 0
                LF RH, face 6
                RF LH only 2
                RF LH, face 6
                All four 1
                All four, face 9
                No markings 28
                Only face Over 50

                This is in a population of 999 horses that also includes other colors and the boys. So it's not that rare for only two feet to have markings.
                I understand they can also have face, or other white, so long as it isn't hind white. Not exactly my point.

                Help me understand the sample you pulled (I'm not a Jockey Club member).. There are 145 you listed, correct? Of those, only 5 have whites on the front without having white on the hind legs? I'm not sure what "lefts" or "rights" means, but assuming it's LF and RF only, that would bring our total up to 17?

                If it's the former, that means 3% of your population fits clanter's request.
                If it's the latter, then it's 12%.

                In my experience, I would say a tenth of a population is rare. I would say 3% exceptionally so.

                But, like I said, not a scientist nor do I play one on TV. I've only seen a couple in my 20 years that don't also have some hind white. I breed paints so I like more white - all of mine that have front white also have hind white. I've seen a lot with hind white only, but front white only is rare (even with face/body/other markings).
                Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arelle View Post
                  If it's the former, that means 3% of your population fits clanter's request.
                  If it's the latter, then it's 12%.
                  We don't know how much of the population it is, because we haven't sampled the whole population. I don't have time to go through all the colors and markings and both sexes to break out exactly how many K00 horses have white on the front feet. You can, though! A Jockey Club login is free. There's a ton of info out there, have at it!

                  But five bay mares with front white and no hind white out of the 999 possible K00 horses that includes boys and the other colors doesn't seem that slim to me. Feel free to change my mind with further exam of the data.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wait, is clanter talking about the actual hoof. As in light colored hoof?

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by silver_charm View Post
                      It does seems rarer than you'd think when you actually sit down and try to come up with horses you know that have it. Imothep is one that I know off hand: http://www.hyperionstud.com/stallion...photos-gallery
                      beautiful horse, will show daughter ... she is a biology teacher and was wondering if there was a linkage to white fronts have a correlation to rears

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by CanteringCarrot View Post
                        Wait, is clanter talking about the actual hoof. As in light colored hoof?
                        the discussion began with white hoofs then was expended to white socks as we could not remember seeing one that did not have a rear white also

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was confused about that too. I wasn't sure if white hooves or white markings... either way, interesting question! I feel like I've only seen (or at least noticed) one horse that had white markings on both of their front legs and none on their hind.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            breakfast discussion here are usually related to something to do with an animal, this one started from daughter's new horse being marked nearly the same as one of our older mares that she loved

                            Arelle I will make sure daughter reads your post

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sim has at least one front white hoof



                              Stars has ar least one white front hoof

                              It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post
                                Sim has at least one front white hoof
                                Thanks for the photos, will forward to Older Daughter, turns out this discussion began between older daughter who was also a science major and younger daughter and they started talking about genetics

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Both tbs if that helps.
                                  It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I read an article a few years ago with this statistic:

                                    Hind feet/legs are more likely to have white socks/stockings, and when only one hind foot has a sock or stocking it is more often the left.

                                    When only front feet have socks or stockings, it is also more often the left.

                                    The “more often left” white socks has been my personal observation , and most horse people could tell you that white feet (legs) are more often found on hind than front - but I’m not sure whether this article included the question in the OP. Regardless, I found it interesting – and found it to be confirmation of my own experiences after looking at horses for 50+ years.



                                    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                                    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post

                                      The “more often left” white socks has been my personal observation ,
                                      100% of ours that only had one rear sock was left (we only had one with one rear sock )

                                      for many years the only way I could tell our bay horses apart was to count their white feet, we had five at one time

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Well in my experience it’s not uncommon. I’ve had 2 with white only on front feet (one had a star, one had no white elsewhere), 3 with white only behind plus face for all, and 4 solid legs. All horses overall had minimal white.

                                        Comment

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