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Update to Forum Rules: Criminal Allegations

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Is this equine professional sensible?

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  • #21
    It completely depends on the horse and the trainer. At one month under saddle a well-started horse may be comfortably hacking out, WTC, and jumping small individual fences or lines. Another well-started horse may be going through a growing phase or have a disposition more suited to a slower start.

    Does the trainer have a track record of successfully developing young horses? Do the horses they bring up tend to stay happy and sound for at least an average length of time? Does this specific horse look confident with the questions being asked or is it displaying signs of fear or being overwhelmed?

    Comment


    • #22
      Heck, there are still a LOT of people who back their horses as 2 year olds. Lets not forget about flat racing, where horses are started as long yearlings. Four years old is a perfectly nice age to be started, and I would not be concerned at all about the horse being introduced to small jumps at this age. Without knowing the details (IE if the trainer is pounding the heck out of the horse by jumping a lot) I would say it sounds perfectly reasonable. A four year old can be much better balanced and aware of its body than a three year old, so even if they have only been under saddle for 30 days they can be perfectly capable of going over small fences. I have known horses that age with 30 days on them being taking to a schooling show for experience--they did a green horse division, so just a flat class and tiny crossrails, but I think it's great. If that is the life the horse is destined for, there is no reason not to start introducing it to them to it early if it isn't overwhelming them.

      The tacking up issue I do not see directly related to being jumped. There are a LOT of young horses who resent being started, especially if they are older when the are broke. Horsie just spent 4 years playing the field with his friends and all of a sudden he is being asked to work. Even if he is not overwhelmed by the actual work it can take a while to develop an ethic in a young horse. Of course, tack fitting issues or changing musculature should be taken into account as well. A young horse can change quickly, especially in work, and what fit 30 days ago might not fit now.

      Comment


      • #23
        I find that the more time spent on the ground, the faster they progress under saddle. So we don't know that the trainer has not spent several months working with this horse on the ground to include free jumping.

        Unless the OP has been there for every training session, he or she may not know what went on prior to the 30 days under saddle, or before the horse even arrived at the trainers. I know plenty of people who can do great initial training and send them to the trainer when they are ready to be ridden.
        "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

        Comment


        • #24
          The tacking up issue could just be that the horse is starting to do real work and he’s not that into it. Some horses don’t mind the long lining portion of their education because they’re not being asked to do much. I wouldn’t automatically think he’s being grumpy about it because he’s being jumped too much.

          Have you actually seen the trainer ride the horse? Is it going around happily? Is she asking him to do endless jumps for hours a day, everyday? Are you just not a fan of this trainer and you need some little thing to glom into to justify leaving her? If you don’t like how she trains, don’t use her. Simple enough. You don’t need Internet strangers to tell you that.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Caol Ila View Post
            Is there something wrong with looking for validation on COTH? I reckon half the posts on the boards are more or less doing that.
            Well, kinda... yeah. It's a waste of anyone's time to hold your hand or join the Hate Club for some local person we don't know, wouldn't you say?

            That said, if the horse was a bold and/or secure type and the trainer had a superb eye, I wouldn't mind him/her popping over a low fence every once in a while during a flat school. But I'd want to see the pro giving this baby a very, very good ride and the horse not getting worried by the occasional fence.

            Come to think of it, the mare I bought to do dressage with as a 5 year old with 60 days on her had some of this. But the pro was very fair and supportive to her young horses, her eye was balls-on accurate and the mare was pretty game. To this day, she thinks poles and such are interesting and goes towards them. I didn't jump her when I tried her, but I saw the pro happen to canter over a couple of them and the mare didn't mind. Then and since, I have really appreciated how rideable she made this young horse in just 60 days. The fact that I, a total random person, could get on her and cruise around at all three gaits, was a testament to her skill as a trainer shaping a young horse's education.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
              Does the trainer have a track record of successfully developing young horses? Do the horses they bring up tend to stay happy and sound for at least an average length of time? Does this specific horse look confident with the questions being asked or is it displaying signs of fear or being overwhelmed?
              These are the right questions. If this is the only horse this person has ever trained, I would take it back and find someone else. If this is part of a program that has worked in the past, I would be willing to wait and see.

              Comment


              • #27
                "Well, kinda... yeah. It's a waste of anyone's time to hold your hand or join the Hate Club for some local person we don't know, wouldn't you say?"

                No.

                The horse world has plenty of people who put forth incorrect/ non-traditional information for whatever reason: they want to keep a client ignorant to make $$, they have another client wanting to purchase/ lease said horse if xx ability is proven by yy date, they themselves have a deadline they want to make be it financial, achievement/ show oriented, or need the horse moving on to make room for another client.

                It can all sound very convincing and legitimate when spun in a certain way. There's nothing wrong with coming here, where a supposed cross-section of the demographic of horse folks can be found, and bouncing ideas off the general population.

                Just because it's "perfectly normal" in (g) your world does not mean it is truly harmless/ normal in the real world. But I suppose everyone here has never been taken advantage of, witnessed the permanent laming of a talented youngster by an overzealous "pro", or had to stand by and doctor repeated injuries that you knew were entirely avoidable by simply not pushing so hard.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Caol Ila View Post
                  If a trainer were jumping a four-year old who had been under saddle for less than a month, both over small showjumps and small xc jumps (about 2' high), would you want that trainer to work with you? Would you trust their judgment and general horse sense?

                  This is not how I was taught to bring on youngsters but is there an argument for it?
                  I would have absolutely zero problems with this.

                  I like to put the babies over little bitty jumps as soon as they are steering reliably. Just trot in and canter away. Little boxes, little walls.

                  1. it's a great way to get into the canter on one that doesnt have a solid depart yet.

                  2. We learn that what we are pointed at, we go over. Part of life, no big deal.

                  This is very different from putting courses together, though.
                  Once they'll hop in and hop out easily there's not much point in doing courses until their flat work is at a point where you can do courses, so I personally for the most part put the jumps away again and just work on flat work until they're ready to pick back up.

                  https://youtu.be/L5cWzgef8l8
                  About two months after this horse was started.

                  Note the level of expectation is much, much lower than after he had a year of dressage training under his belt (although he did very little jumping in the intervening year):

                  https://youtu.be/i9q-EXvZ_5w

                  https://youtu.be/oh8PM4yEc-M
                  Last edited by meupatdoes; Sep. 11, 2018, 08:18 AM.
                  The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                  Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                  Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                  The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Your horse, your money, your rules. If this is your horse, your concerns don't need validation. You're in the driver's seat of this. I myself have said a very big HELL NO to a very big name trainer and I have never once regretted it.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

                      I would have absolutely zero problems with this.

                      I like to put the babies over little bitty jumps as soon as they are steering reliably. Just trot in and canter away. Little boxes, little walls.

                      1. it's a great way to get into the canter on one that doesnt have a solid depart yet.

                      2. We learn that what we are pointed at, we go over. Part of life, no big deal.

                      This is very different from putting courses together, though.
                      Once they'll hop in and hop out easily there's not much point in doing courses until their flat work is at a point where you can do courses, so I personally for the most part put the jumps away again and just work on flat work until they're ready to pick back up.

                      https://youtu.be/L5cWzgef8l8
                      About two months after this horse was started.

                      Note the level of expectation is much, much lower than after he had a year of dressage training under his belt (although he did very little jumping in the intervening year):

                      https://youtu.be/i9q-EXvZ_5w

                      https://youtu.be/oh8PM4yEc-M
                      If that's you riding, i love how soft and relaxed you ride. ..

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I don't see a problem with it. I normally start mine as 3yos and like to introduce poles and Xs quickly as long as they have basic steering and w/t/somewhat canter. Usually have them jumping weekly over little verticals and grids by the end of the year. I expect my 4yos to be jumping 2'6 ish courses and my 5yos to be at 3'0 by the end of the year, although that progression can occasionally stall out with baby horse dramatics or other things such as working on the change, developing the jump, bravery issues, etc.

                        Putting them over little jumps early can be especially helpful at establishing canter or revving up a lackluster engine or work ethic. They usually find little X lines to be fun and interesting and it allows you to add training with the baby horse thinking it's fun and games.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          No, emphatically no.
                          Jeanie
                          RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            From the sounds of it, it's not your horse, but you're seeing something that you don't like. If that's the case, you're 100% entitled to your opinion, and if you're unhappy with the way your trainer is training this horse, first figure out if you're happy with the way the trainer is working with YOU and YOUR horse. If yes, then decide if that makes it worth it for you to stay and turn a blind eye to what you don't agree with (but doesn't directly affect you), or if you can't be around it and need to leave. Either option is fine, you just have to decide what's best for you.

                            To answer your particular question about 4 year olds, I don't see anything wrong with someone popping tiny (around 2') jumps, whether in an arena or XC, as long as it's not often. At that height, the horse is really barely picking up its feet so it's not a huge impact on their knees. I'd say my personal taste would be to not start true baby jumps until the horse is a little further under saddle, say if I started a horse in the spring of its 4yo year, spend the summer hacking and doing baby horse stuff, and then might start baby jumps towards the fall, that makes sense for me. But again, there are so many differing opinions out there. It really depends on the horse, too.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Over here horses are not jumped until the have 4 year old teeth in wear. It means the knees have finished closing.
                              It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Like others, I question whether this is your horse. I'm guessing no. Second question, is this even your trainer, or are you just an observer? If it is not your horse, and not your trainer, then it really doesn't matter what you (or any of us) think. It's between the owner and trainer. That all being said, I've jumped small jumps often with four year olds. Some liked it, some did not. I don't think it's simply a matter of age. Most of mine were OTTB, which mature physically a little faster in my opinion. There are quite a few variables to consider.
                                “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
                                ¯ Oscar Wilde

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I follow Elisa Wallace, and she's doing just this with a 4-year old Mustang she's starting. I don't see anything wrong with it if you consider the larger context...how she works with horses doesn't give me pause. Had she started by jamming him into side reins or rushing him through jump Lanes, I'm sure I would have a different opinion

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by TMares View Post
                                    I follow Elisa Wallace, and she's doing just this with a 4-year old Mustang she's starting. I don't see anything wrong with it if you consider the larger context...how she works with horses doesn't give me pause. Had she started by jamming him into side reins or rushing him through jump Lanes, I'm sure I would have a different opinion
                                    I follow her, too. Love her and what she is doing with Dorado, the Mustang. She also has horses competing in the RRP TB Makeover. Those four year olds jump as well.
                                    “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
                                    ¯ Oscar Wilde

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by ParadoxFarm View Post

                                      I follow her, too. Love her and what she is doing with Dorado, the Mustang. She also has horses competing in the RRP TB Makeover. Those four year olds jump as well.
                                      I'll have to check her out. Those tbs have possibly been under saddle for 2 years and are heading towards a 2nd career.

                                      On another note, it's been shown that tbs who race at age 2 stay sounder longer than those that do not, and the veterinarian community supports training and racing 2 yos. So I have no problem with jumping a 4 yo.
                                      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Is this your 4 yo? If not, how do you know he wasn't started last year for 2-3 months?

                                        Either way, if you don't like the trainer, then leave.

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