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For the BLM Conspiracy Theorists

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  • #41
    Yes, JSwan, I am aware of the rewildling business, however it is not in any danger of becoming a reality. I work as a conservation biologist every day, I am well aware of the challenges and compromises we are forced to make. I was not making an argument for or against mustang roundups per se, as, like many resource management strategies, they are a mixed bag of pros and cons, simply commenting on use of terminology inaccurately applied.

    If I thought it would make a difference to wildlife and conservation to leap off a bridge, I would be more than happy to do so. However, it will make zero difference whatsoever, so I shall instead choose the path of working on whatever small solutions we can pull off.
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    • #42
      The horses have assigned areas where they are allowed, do they not? I don't object to management - I object to helicopter roundups! In all these years the BLM still hasn't figured out how to manage these horses or control the population. They aren't "horsemen/women" and should not be over the horses. They should work out some arrangements with Mrs. Pickens or someone like her who cares and is knowledgable. It's certainly not their fault where they are. It's also not acceptable to run them for hours from the air and then warehouse them somewhere else.
      PennyG

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      • #43
        Originally posted by JSwan View Post
        Using that logic, you'd probably advocate for reintroducing the modern elephant, lion and tiger into our ecosystem as well.

        Because what I really want to see is a bunch of Asian elephants running down Main Street.

        Anyone who advocates Pleistocene rewilding is nuts. .
        Yeah, if we're using that as a basis, when we're done cloning mammoth's let's do Hyracotherium, too. God knows we need giganic sloths with huge claws tearing through the tree bark. And we would HAVE to clone things like direwolves, the arctic short-faced bear, and the saber-tooth tiger, because you cannot bring in the vegetarian/omnivorous megafauna without either hunting a LOT or bringing in the comparable carnivores.

        Not to mention it's a complete stupid assertion anyway as the ecosystem NOW is not the ecosystem of the Pleistiocene and would be unable to support any of those animals except maybe the short-faced bear, and google him for why we REALLY don't need more of those running around.

        And forget the PC nonsense of "humans of European descent" (especially if you refuse to include the other 'invasive' group, Africans, in there) and cut that to ALL Homo sapiens. There are no native great apes in North America. Zero. None. (No, not even "Bigfoot" if he's real. If it is, it's almost certainly a remnant population from the Asian megafauna apes. But that's an off-topic day.) Every single human population in the Americas is, if you go back far enough, non-Native, and until you get to the first arrivals from Asia, every one displaced another, usually through violence.

        We introduced a destructive species. There isn't any biological reason to keep them around, so it IS purely sentiment (one the people who won the west on those horses a hundred years ago wouldn't share.) If we want to manage a remnant population of eating machines, we either have to manage them like cattle including culling the population in more permanent ways than holding facilities or accept that the current system, flawed as it is, is about the only thing we have.
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        • #44
          Well, that's reasonable.

          It's that I often read or hear that argument (their ancestors were here thousands of years ago) and I just don't think it's relevant or applicable to modern conservation. Certainly not something to base major land use decisions on.

          I don't understand the self loathing (not you but in general), and the complete ignorance about conservation - and the struggle to balance human needs and those of the environment.

          It's always a struggle to balance the two. It's never going to be perfect, and there is always more to learn.

          But this tendency to view our own species as some sort of plague is really odd. Some are choosing an arbitrary period in the evolution of this planet and saying - yeah - let's return the earth to this period of time.

          Why that period? Why not an earlier period, and label the feral hog a protected species? Its ancestor roamed America too. And yet - we shoot those suckers on sight because they are so destructive.

          If the feral horse is an invasive, then we must either eradicate it or control its numbers.

          If the feral horse is NOT an invasive, and is to be protected, then experimenting on herds (contraception) and disrupting the social ecology of the herd may be detrimental to the species as a whole.

          It seems that the US had chosen to manage the numbers. That means we have chosen to view them as an invasive we'll tolerate but will control their numbers.

          These horses are getting a much better deal than other troublesome species. The feral dog, cat and hog are shot on sight.

          I think BLM is trying to balance the needs and desires of a variety of stakeholders - rightfully including animal welfare groups.

          I don't know what the answer is, but I really doubt there is any conspiracy (not saying you said there was - again just a general comment)

          It's there ineptness? Sure - humans aren't perfect. Is there waste? Heck yeah, it's the gov't. Are animals injured or killed? Yes, and BLM should minimize that to the extent possible.

          But you and I (and others on this forum) have seen the tremendous destruction caused by poor land management, absence of predators, and invasive/exotic species.

          I know BLM, other agencies, and nonprofits have spent a helluva lot of time and money restoring habitat. Sometimes that means removing the invasive/exotic or natives to allow vegetation to recover.

          I see this (and I think you do too) as simply a very big land management problem.
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          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
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          • Original Poster

            #45
            Originally posted by TKR View Post
            The horses have assigned areas where they are allowed, do they not? I don't object to management - I object to helicopter roundups! In all these years the BLM still hasn't figured out how to manage these horses or control the population. They aren't "horsemen/women" and should not be over the horses. They should work out some arrangements with Mrs. Pickens or someone like her who cares and is knowledgable. It's certainly not their fault where they are. It's also not acceptable to run them for hours from the air and then warehouse them somewhere else.
            PennyG
            Not so much 'assigned areas' as in fenced pastures as 'management areas' wherein the sustainable population is supposed to be established and managed.

            As for use of helicopters- they've been used to roundup animals for decades, and like using horses or ATVs or trucks for roundups, it can be done well, or not- so use of helicopters is not for me a showstopper, per se.

            BLM 'has' figured out how to manage, but every potential solution is unacceptable to somebody! If they leave them to do their thing, you have mass die offs and hammered rangeland. If they round them up, well, witness here, people claim they are intentionally trying to kill or maim them, and accuse ranchers of profiting from 'boarding' excess horses while hailing Mrs. Pickens as a 'savior' when her proposal was to do exactly the same arrangements that the ranchers have (after the initial hoopla that she was going to save them, it would appear that many have conveniently forgotten the conditions that she herself is quoted as saying BLM would have to meet for her to do the deal). I don't know that Mrs. Pickens is any more knowledgeable than the average BLM employee. Certainly richer, though.

            They are trying contraception in a number of areas- I know from one BLM staffer in Utah that his concern was, the particular injection they tried prevents conception for two years, but they have observed that when it wears off, the mares cycle year round, so you have foals being born year round, disrupts herd dynamics plus babies die in harsh winters.

            And, there are more horsemen among BLM staff than you might think, but these are wild animals, your basic 'horsemanship' techniques do not apply!

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            • #46
              Originally posted by TKR View Post
              The horses have assigned areas where they are allowed, do they not? I don't object to management - I object to helicopter roundups! In all these years the BLM still hasn't figured out how to manage these horses or control the population. They aren't "horsemen/women" and should not be over the horses. They should work out some arrangements with Mrs. Pickens or someone like her who cares and is knowledgable. It's certainly not their fault where they are. It's also not acceptable to run them for hours from the air and then warehouse them somewhere else.
              PennyG
              When you say they are not not horsemen/women, I hope you mean officials in D.C. (although I bet some of them are horsepeople too) because there are plenty of people in the Wild Horse and Burro program that are horse people. That is why they are working there, because they love horses and want to help them. It has to be one of the toughest most heartbreaking, thankless jobs out there. Everybody hates you because not matter what you do there is somebody whose public land interest is getting harmed.

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              • #47
                The species we call domestic equidae today was never native to this continent.
                Today's horses are a feral, introduced species in the wild.

                We may as well demand other truly native species are given all the land around to live and thrive, like wolves:
                How about a petition to have them replanted from, say, Canada, that has many extra ones they will gladly sell us, maybe some in Central Park?
                Wolves were native there at one time.


                ---"QUOTE
                Tens of thousands of gray wolves would be returned to the woods of New England, the mountains of California, the wide open Great Plains, and the desert West under a scientific petition filed July 20 with the federal government. The predators were poisoned and trapped to near-extermination in the United States last century, but have since clawed their way back to some of the most remote wilderness in the lower 48 states. That recovery was boosted in the 1990s by the reintroduction of 66 wolves in Idaho and Yellowstone National Park. As those first packs have flourished, increased livestock killings and declining big game herds have drawn sharp backlash from ranchers, hunters, and officials in the Northern Rockies.
                But biologists with the Arizona-based Center for Biological Diversity want to expand that recovery across the country.
                A few isolated pockets of wolves, they say, are not enough. "If the gray wolf is listed as endangered, it should be recovered in all significant portions of its range, not just fragments," said Michael Robinson, who authored the petition. Robinson said the animals occupy less than 5% of their historic range in the lower 48 states."---


                We need to understand that the laws passed in 1971 to protect and manage feral horse herds in those designated ranges were to keep them only as a symbol of the West as the novels of that time told, not try to reintroduce a lost species, a big difference.

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