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For the BLM Conspiracy Theorists

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  • #21
    Actually I did click on that link

    Originally posted by Beverley View Post
    Funny thing. The link I provided in the first post includes...detailed survey reports of numbers of horses. Guess you didn't bother to look, eh?

    Do you only read that which supports your personal preconceptions?
    Those "surveys" have been proven wrong both by the BLM themselves and the "activists." DO NOT make assumptions of me or what I do or do not believe. You do not know me of that I am sure.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by sketcher View Post
      Yep. For all the people who think big government is bad and want their tax cuts and also complain about the size of the deficit, this would be one place to start. And think of how many programs like this the government sponsors - all special interests - all expensive.
      Hey, I want my tax cuts and lowered spending. If that's what it takes...(though that would cut a lot less waste than going after certain other sacred cows of a more metaphoric nature; DoE, I'm looking at YOU.)

      And you're missing a market if they're no longer owned by the BLM--you'll get every crackpot out there who wants to make their own Mickey Mouse registry with a website hosted by angelfire out there rounding up "wild" horses, penning them up, and advertising them as a special breed, which can be yours for three easy payments...God help any of the horses with pwetty coat colors and odd eyes. The Krazy Kolor Klub would be all over that like white on a tobiano.

      The BLM tries. The horses are not their primary concern nor should they be as an invasive species that's only still present because of sentiment rather than a legitimate place in the ecosystem, or any sort of contribution to agriculture (the cattle.) If anyone has a better system that doesn't involve wasting any more of the taxpayer's money or letting them breed like rabbits, speak up. Speaking of rabbits, ask Australia about how many rights a destructive invasive herbivore has...
      Author Page
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      • #23
        So "sentiment" is not a factor -- doesn't matter that these mustangs ancestors were active participants in serving the humans who "won the west" and settled it. I guess cattle and sheep belong on the "wild frontier" and don't destroy the same vegetation? Any rangeland that can support the mustangs is desired by the ranchers -- doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad, but they have more $$ and representation than the mustangs. I don't think Madeline Pickens was interested in making a huge profit off the horses, she has been a horse person and in racehorses with her former husband (deceased) prior to marrying T. Boone. She wanted to help, but the red tape with the BLM and lack of negotiations killed it. At least under her management BECAUSE she cares, they would be in much better hands. Does ANYONE think that helicopter roundups are OK? That running the feet off a foal is OK? Why don't they do some regular roundups in a more sensible way and geld the colts? I seriously doubt the numbers the BLM projects are based on fact. Is it ok to just warehouse the ones captured in crowded conditions? The only plan the BLM has ever had to just to get rid of them so the land can be used by ranchers and hunters.
        PennyG

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        • #24
          Originally posted by TKR View Post
          So "sentiment" is not a factor -- doesn't matter that these mustangs ancestors were active participants in serving the humans who "won the west" and settled it. I guess cattle and sheep belong on the "wild frontier" and don't destroy the same vegetation? Any rangeland that can support the mustangs is desired by the ranchers -- doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad, but they have more $$ and representation than the mustangs. I don't think Madeline Pickens was interested in making a huge profit off the horses, she has been a horse person and in racehorses with her former husband (deceased) prior to marrying T. Boone. She wanted to help, but the red tape with the BLM and lack of negotiations killed it. At least under her management BECAUSE she cares, they would be in much better hands. Does ANYONE think that helicopter roundups are OK? That running the feet off a foal is OK? Why don't they do some regular roundups in a more sensible way and geld the colts? I seriously doubt the numbers the BLM projects are based on fact. Is it ok to just warehouse the ones captured in crowded conditions? The only plan the BLM has ever had to just to get rid of them so the land can be used by ranchers and hunters.
          PennyG
          I could tell you point by point all that is wrong with what you say there.
          If you just read what has been already posted, you can figure that all by yourself, I don't need to repeat it.

          You are right on one thing, Mrs Pickens is a nice lady, she is a some times local celebrity now, Mr Pickens being from here after all.
          What you may not know is that what she wanted is to start yet one more non-profit group to care for those unadopted feral horses being warehoused now, with some money she and her friends would donate and asking for public donations, but on land the government would provide and with operating money the BLM would give, the figure mentioned was $500 per horse per year.
          She would make a theme park out of that land and you could go watch the feral herds and buy souvenirs.

          I would not dismiss her quite yet, you never know, if the economy picks up, she may yet come back to give this another try.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by TKR View Post
            So "sentiment" is not a factor -- doesn't matter that these mustangs ancestors were active participants in serving the humans who "won the west" and settled it. I guess cattle and sheep belong on the "wild frontier" and don't destroy the same vegetation? Any rangeland that can support the mustangs is desired by the ranchers -- doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad, but they have more $$ and representation than the mustangs. I don't think Madeline Pickens was interested in making a huge profit off the horses, she has been a horse person and in racehorses with her former husband (deceased) prior to marrying T. Boone. She wanted to help, but the red tape with the BLM and lack of negotiations killed it. At least under her management BECAUSE she cares, they would be in much better hands. Does ANYONE think that helicopter roundups are OK? That running the feet off a foal is OK? Why don't they do some regular roundups in a more sensible way and geld the colts? I seriously doubt the numbers the BLM projects are based on fact. Is it ok to just warehouse the ones captured in crowded conditions? The only plan the BLM has ever had to just to get rid of them so the land can be used by ranchers and hunters.
            PennyG

            Sentiment is fine, as long as the horses are not out there displacing wildlife and overgrazing the rangeland. Who do you think "won the west" on those horses? The cowboys, the ranchers, the farmers that moved west. Yet when they complain that their way of life is being pushed out everybody just calls them a bunch of whiners that abuse the public land.

            YES!!! cattle and sheep can destroy the rangelands if not managed properly. But how many times does it have to be said that cattle and sheep ARE NOT OUT THERE YEARLONG! The most recent horse round up in Nevada occurred on lands that WERE NOT BEING GRAZED BY CATTLE. It is such a misconception that there are millions and millions of cattle and sheep out there scarfing up all the grass on BLM. Cattle permits have been REDUCED over the years. Has there been damage by cattle YES! But their numbers are being managed and reduced to improve and maintain a healthy landscape along with the horses.

            If Pickens really wanted to help she would have adopted a bunch of mustangs and taken care of them with her millions. She wanted the BLM to pay HER to keep the horses. That sounds like trying to make a buck off the government, not help the horses.

            The horses need to be rounded up. Some of them are going to get injured or killed. No matter what time of year they are rounded up there will be a obstacle. Too hot, too cold, too dry, too many foals (there are proabably always either foals or pregnant mare, that is why they can overpopulate so fast). What else are you going to do but warehouse them in holding facilities. They don't have people lined up around the block adopting. They cannot stay out on the range or they WILL eventually die of starvation and lack of water even if ALL the cattle and sheep were removed. Eventually they would eat everything and some would starve and the rangeland would be damaged in the process. But I guess that is okay because it would be natural. I saw on another site where some activists were glad the BLM turned an old mare back out. They were happy she could live out her life and die wild. Well it is highly likely that that mare will not just lie down in the green grass, close her eyes and go peacefully in her sleep. Most likely she will get thinner and thinner as she loses her teeth and can't eat as well. She will get weaker and at some point not be able to get up. Then she will struggle for awhile, digging big holes with her feet and banging her head on the ground trying to get up. Then if she is lucky she will die before the coyotes find her and begin to eat her alive. My guess is at that point she couldn't give a crap if she is still wild or not, she is dying a horrible death. It is not all romantic wild horses running free across the landcape out there. And there would be a lot of suffering, starving animals if the BLM did not round them up.

            The BLM is there to manage the rangeland, keep it as healthy as possible and allow for mulitple uses that include wildlife, horses, ranchers, minerals, recreation, hunting, endangered NATIVE species. The plan has NEVER been to remove all the horses to make room for more cattle.

            Comment


            • #26
              Did anything come of the idea to control fertility and population with contraceptive implants or vaccinations?

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              • #27
                Originally posted by fburton View Post
                Did anything come of the idea to control fertility and population with contraceptive implants or vaccinations?
                Yes, they have tried different methods for several years now, there are ongoing studies.
                What they are finding out is that some of those ways to keep mares from conceiving are causing herds to fight and split and in the fighting some are getting injured, because the mares are either not coming in heat, or the few that are are being fought over and bred too much, to the point of injury.

                Eventually they will find a way that works without those side effects, but any time you mess with those basic natural instincts, you will alter the behaviours that sprung from those.

                Do read that book, you can find all that in there:

                http://www.oregonslivinglegends.com/

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                • #28
                  That's very interesting, thanks Bluey.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by leilatigress View Post
                    Those "surveys" have been proven wrong both by the BLM themselves and the "activists." DO NOT make assumptions of me or what I do or do not believe. You do not know me of that I am sure.
                    Clicking on the link and taking a glance is not the same as reading a document. How do the numbers in this particular document correlate to 'those surveys' that you allege have been proven wrong?

                    To be sure, BLM and many other fed and non fed entities use bad data all the time. In the case of BLM, my husband the judge nails them on that whenever it has occurred in the matters before him.

                    As far as I know, I indeed do not know you. Nevertheless your posts continue to give me the impression that you, like some other posters on this thread, have formed an opinion that is not based on fact, only allegation, innuendo, and urban legend. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, however, false information does not become true information when repeated ad nauseum.

                    What I posted was a link to an environmental assessment for a specific PROPOSED roundup to occur in September. My between the lines challenge was- somebody read that document and tell me where IN THAT DOCUMENT BLM has flawed data or a flawed proposal. As yet, I see only the same old sweeping 'big bad BLM' messages, containing inaccurate information, thus supporting my theory that many people opposed to rounding up the feral horses don't really want to challenge themselves to take a look at the science, or related facts. You tell me not to make assumptions- maybe you should take that advice too!

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Much like the current state US politics...

                      I think that the issue of "wild" horses is much that surrounding the issue of horse slaughter ... It is a very polarizing subject, with people on the extremes of both sides, who may actually be friends or even related, but really feeling quite "different" feelings on the subject...

                      That being said, I am continually impressed by the vast array of opinions expressed by individuals representing both sides, i.e., the "activists" and the BLM... I have personally heard lectures/presentations by many, independent scientists expressing, again, differing conclusions regarding horse numbers, range conditions, conditions at the time of round-up, etc... And, even debating the concept that modern equids are an invasive species vs. a native one... (I find the possibilty that horses existed on the North American continent prior to the time of Columbus rather intriguing and with some scientific merit! ) No doubt, there may be value in all of what is said...

                      Having developed an interest in this topic several years ago, I do try to "keep up" with the matters being discussed... In the past, I have experienced several "satisfactory" interactions with the BLM, at least it's "Eastern" division and/or the "Internet" contacts... both seem to be located in Springfield, VA... These interactions were those occuring in 2006 when I "adopted" my first BLM mustang...

                      Despite these relatively positive interactions, I still find the "overall" management capacity of the BLM to be lacking... and, I'm talking about the decision makers not the hoards of hard working government employess or contractors... No doubt this is related to many factors, budgetary constraints, congressional oversight, or who knows what other illusive factors...

                      Like in many other areas, I feel our "government" falls short in doing for us, it's citizens, and I would personally prefer to see "something" in the private sector involved as a primary entity... And, before anyone jumps to the conclusion that we can "privatize" the "Living Legends" effectively without the possibility of untoward conseqences, what I really think would work best is to appoint/assign an advocacy group(s)... in the same way that many jurisdictions choose to have "animal control" functions work hand-in-hand with animal rescue organizations, like the SPCA...

                      So really, everyone get off your "high horse" ... Similar to the subject of horse slaughter , in order to be effective in consensus building, you have to "tolerate" a wide array of opinions... At least, in order to solve this "problem"!
                      Gleann Oighrig LLC
                      Showing, Sales, Breeding, and Boarding
                      Manakin-Sabot, Virginia

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                      • #31
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Ai5WGvLkE
                        --Gwen <><
                        "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                        http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

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                        • #32
                          Oh jeez....... among all the other things BLM has done wrong, the gulf oil spill is now their fault too.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Well, there ya go. An absolutely laughable video, with zero basis in fact.

                            If you believe even one frame of that, I've got a couple of oil wells in Oklahoma I'll give you a good deal on.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Oooh, can we "blame" the oil spill in "Michigan" on the "BLM?"

                              No, wait, it's the "President" and all his "vacations?" (oops, that's from over in eventing. Nevermind.)

                              Or is it the fault of "those" rascally wild "horses" who did the "manifest destiny" thing?

                              http://www.clickondetroit.com/money/...16/detail.html
                              Proud Member of the League of Weenie Eventers
                              Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique

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                              • #35
                                Just for a bit of biological clarification -- horses are NOT an invasive species in North America. They actually evolved here millions of years ago. Dinohippus, the ancestor of the modern Equus, can be found fossilized in North America in the Plains and Western states. Equus was driven to extirpation from N. America about 11,000 years ago but then returned in the 15th century.
                                Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                                Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                                We Are Flying Solo

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                                • #36
                                  Using that logic, you'd probably advocate for reintroducing the modern elephant, lion and tiger into our ecosystem as well.

                                  Because what I really want to see is a bunch of Asian elephants running down Main Street.

                                  Anyone who advocates Pleistocene rewilding is nuts. It's a bunch of ivory tower academics experimenting on our ecosystem with absolutely no idea what they're doing. The US isn't their little Jurassic Park playground - 300 million people live here.

                                  In any event, if the goal is Pleistocene rewilding, the modern but feral horse would not be considered a proxy. It would be the zebra that would be reintroduced to the plains.

                                  If anything, the feral horse problem demonstrates the inability of a modern ecosystem to adapt to the presence of a species not seen for over 13000 years.

                                  The only way to control the number of feral horses is to reintroduce a LOT of large carnivores. I don't object to predator reintroduction, but let's face it. Dumping a bunch of lions and tigers onto the plains is just not going to happen.

                                  In order to minimize the impact of this feral species, you have to control numbers. Or eliminate them. The decision was made to control numbers.

                                  I'd rather control numbers than try to get the American public to accept a bunch of lions and tigers in their midst.
                                  Last edited by JSwan; Jul. 30, 2010, 10:22 AM.
                                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                  -Rudyard Kipling

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                                  • #37
                                    Wow, that was a bit of a leap. While I would actually love to see tigers hunting people, I don't think that's actually very relevant here. One poster labeled horses as invasive species -- by the classic definition of an invasive species, that's not technically true.

                                    On a related note, how long DOES a species have to reside in an area to be considered native? Modern horses have now been here for around 700 years -- and arrived at the same time as the Europeans did, from whom many folks who live here are descended. So if the horses are labeled as an invasive species worthy of extirpation, well, then humans of European descent are as well.
                                    Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                                    Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                                    We Are Flying Solo

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                                    • #38
                                      It's not a leap. Pleistocene rewilding is extremely controversial.

                                      It's one thing to reintroduce wolves - though that is problematic as we all know.

                                      It's quite another to use proxy species. The zebra or feral horse is a proxy species - and in no way can replicate the role of its ancestor in a modern ecosystem. Particularly an ecosystem in which humans are present. That's just the reality.

                                      Unless you are proposing that we all commit mass suicide so the zebras and the antelope can play, any conservationist must accept that we are not playing with our own little Jurassic Park. Human needs must be taken into consideration.

                                      Humans are often excluded, regulated or controlled to prevent their activities from destroying or unduly impacting an ecosystem. Even on their own land.

                                      This isn't some little philosophical argument in which we can argue whether or not European descendants are the invasives, and feral pigs are not. I don't see you committing suicide out of pity for the poor environment, and I certainly have no intention of killing myself either.

                                      We have two choices. Artificially control feral horse numbers, or control them naturally. Both appear to be unpalatable to the public. Yet one must be chosen.
                                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                      -Rudyard Kipling

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by wildlifer View Post
                                        So if the horses are labeled as an invasive species worthy of extirpation, well, then humans of European descent are as well.
                                        I can give you a long list of folks who would be all for that, but that's a whole 'nother thread not suitable to this forum!

                                        The invasive or not debate is a lively one in these parts, including among BLM biologists. But to me, it's a little bit beside the point in the big picture, since 'we' manage native wildlife to a fare thee well as well as nonnatives.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Honestly I'm not sure it even matters if horses are native or invasive. The fact remains that in a lot of places, there are too many of them for the land to support (while also supporting other wildlife and plant species).

                                          There are lots of situations in which native wildlife needs to be managed or even culled, for the good of the ecosystem and other creatures involved (yes, that includes humans, like it or not).

                                          I was just reading a blog entry about elephant culling in South Africa - something which breaks my heart as I have an irrational thing for elephants, but in reading I had to concede that there is certainly a need to do something when the population of a very large animal capable of great amounts of damage to the environment - to the detriment of all other livings in the area - is populated well over what that amount of land can support. It's interesting to me as many of the core arguments about it are very similar to the mustang debate (except in that case, it's definitely a native species by any definition).
                                          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                          My CANTER blog.

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