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sticky situation- opinions/help please :)

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  • #21
    yes it is a free lease, but i am paying for ALL the expenses. i do agree on the fact that i should approach this in a positive light and not stomp my foot and point fingers, because when does that get us anywhere? :P

    the lease contract is also written down and it does in fact state that the only the leesse is aloud to ride the horse, unless they have given consent to the other rider. but the owner of the horse is playing the "i own the horse" card and is starting to make a stink about it. not saying that she doesn't have a point, because she is the owner, but it is nonetheless frustrating. the owner, our trainer, and I are having a meeting about it this weekend and I will tell what the verdict is. but until then, i am still having to walk on eggshells at the barn, waiting to see if the owner shows up to ride or not :/

    thank you all for your opinions! they are greatly valued to me

    ps- sorry about the "sticky situation title", when i was writing it i couldn't think of a better word

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by bigeq77 View Post

      the lease contract is also written down and it does in fact state that the only the leesse is aloud to ride the horse, unless they have given consent to the other rider. but the owner of the horse is playing the "i own the horse" card and is starting to make a stink about it.
      As I said before, this is standard language in leases to keep random people off of a horse. I've always had that in my own leases. It generally does not apply to the owner .

      What does your contract say about terminating the lease? Is there anything in there that allows her to terminate at will?

      I agree that your situation stinks but yes, she does own the horse and she can play that card. Remember that when you go in and talk to her. To make this a "win" situation for you will take some tact on your part.

      If *I* were the owner of this horse and was reading this thread, I might feel you are acting entitled about riding *my* horse. Yes, you've gotten him back into shape, but she obviously liked him enough to buy him and probably thinks highly of him too.

      Good luck!
      Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
      EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

      Comment


      • #23
        I suppose the expectations of a "free lease" vary, but locally, if I "free lease" a horse I am responsible for the horse & the owner has no riding/handling privileges & certainly no right to remove the horse from the barn/property for showing or any other excursions - especially without my foreknowledge & consent - any exceptions would have to be written into the lease contract.

        OTOH I tend to agree with your trainer that the owner's sudden interest will likely fade out with the end of summer ... maybe suggest to the owner that she might take over some portion of his fees based upon the number of days she'd like to ride, while you're waiting
        Point out that should he be injured while she's riding/showing, you'd expect her to cover all vet fees etc (I assume that the converse is covered in your lease at this time) & get this in writing.

        If she wants to terminate the lease, insist on your 30 days notice plus the time you've lost due to her riding, showing him - obviously, she would need to ride elsewhere while sitting out the notice. Afterall you presently have a long term lease not a month to month & you should be treated with some respect as a valued leaser who is also adding value to the horse etc.

        Comment


        • #24
          Maybe I'm clueless, but if all the expenses includes the board for the horse, farrier, vet, etc, I fail to see how this is a "free" lease. In fact, one could ask whether the owner is recording this as "income", which it is even if the owner never sees the $$$ paid to the BO for board. Owner is able to keep horse for nada, AND get it nicely tuned up. Board here can run > 6K/year.
          pace, path, balance, impulsion and ??

          Don't panic! Ralph Leroy Hill

          Comment


          • #25
            It is a free lease because the person leasing the horse does not pay for it. A "for fee" lease includes a rental fee for the horse on top of the expenses.

            More accurately it should be an "expenses" lease.

            No comment at all on the OP's riding skills (of which I am unaware) but overall, not all free leases end up with the horse coming out of it "tuned up." I've had people do an expenses share lease on my horses and I found I had to be very picky because otherwise I spent my spare time retraining the horse.

            Originally posted by GrayCatFarm View Post
            Maybe I'm clueless, but if all the expenses includes the board for the horse, farrier, vet, etc, I fail to see how this is a "free" lease. In fact, one could ask whether the owner is recording this as "income", which it is even if the owner never sees the $$$ paid to the BO for board. Owner is able to keep horse for nada, AND get it nicely tuned up. Board here can run > 6K/year.
            Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
            EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

            Comment


            • #26
              The only people who tend to benefit from leases, "free" or "fee" are trainers. Keep this in mind when you meet with the owner. Who knows how the trainer has set expectations.

              BTW, if you like this horse so much and think it's so nice, why didn't you buy it?

              SCFarm
              The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

              www.southern-cross-farm.com

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Bogie View Post

                If *I* were the owner of this horse and was reading this thread, I might feel you are acting entitled about riding *my* horse. Yes, you've gotten him back into shape, but she obviously liked him enough to buy him and probably thinks highly of him too.

                Good luck!
                How does she sound entitled? If she is paying ALL the expenses, which she says she is, then she should have full use of the horse. If the owner wants to ride/take the horse to a show then she needs to pay some of the board, vet, and shoeing fees. If she wants to "play the owner card" then she has to pay like a regular horse owner. The OP should be prepared that the owner might decide to end the lease, but she is not wrong in being pi$$ed that she is paying for the horse's upkeep and the owner is just waltzing in and riding when she feels like it. While the owner might end the lease, she also might decide that she really only wants to ride when someone else is footing the bill and once she realizes she can't get away with it she will stop riding in favor of not suddenly incurring a lot of extra expenses.

                Comment


                • #28
                  OP, I'm sorry for you and I hope you find a solution.

                  I am very surprised at Bogies attitude. Seriously?? Here if you lease a horse out to someone it is their horse. You can check on any welfare concerns, but otherwise you leave the leasee to it. If you want to ride your horse, that is a share situation, not a loan. You wouldn't rent your house out to someone but then rock up a couple of days a week to stay would you? Well, maybe you would...... And no. Don't defend it by saying 'ahhh, but leasee doesn't pay me 'rent'.' No, she doesn't, but she does pay upkeep. House rental is the opposite, you receive rent as the owner, but you are responsible for upkeep.

                  Sadly there are some people who lease out horses for less ethical reasons (ie want someone to get the horse fit). Generally this leads to the horse being sold from under the leasee and given the way this is going, I think the OP should be prepared for the owner to do this, especially as your first post says the owners wants 'to quit riding'. I'd guess now summer is here she wants to have the fun, when winter comes, she has a fit and mannered horse and will sell. If you don't want this to happen, make sure there is something against this in the contract.
                  Be prepared for it to happen anyway.

                  Next time, find someone who is leasing out their horse because they love their horse and can't bear to part with it but for whatever reason can't ride. I would not lease a horse from someone who 'wants to quit horses'. Or start scanning CraigsList. If you can afford to pay upkeep then you needn't pay a fortune for the horse itself.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Short 'n sweet: I'd be spewing if the owner of a horse I was leasing did this to me. I hope the meeting is constructive, look forward to your update
                    Watch this space...

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Well, it does all depend on how the lease is written. BUT. Really. As long as the the leas is free (upkeep only) then I don't get why anyone here is surprised that the owner wants to ride too.

                      Ya'll are acting like the owner has NOTHING on the hook financially at all. Do any of you actually own a horse? As the owner she has paid the purchase price and is responsible, ultimately, for the horse. Meaning that if said horse dies, she has to deal with it, pay the expenses involved and suffer the loss, emotional and financial. If the lessor flakes, moves, leaves, whatever, she is completely responsible for any and all bills both current and back that were not paid.

                      This person is getting a great (according to her) ride on a nice horse for immediate expenses only. She has ZERO commitment to this horse. And ZERO investment (financially).

                      Again, my sneaking suspicion is the Trainer is the one who has set the expectations here. She/he likely told the owner she could ride/show on occasion and let the lessor think that the owner wouldn't be riding at all. I agree that "no one else rides" in the contract excludes the owner and is meant to keep random people (or lesson people) of the horse.

                      This is NOT like renting a house for crying out loud. Not even close. There is no such thing (formally) as a "free lease" house. That's because of mortgage and liability issues. Someone has to ultimately be on the hook for those.

                      Let me ask the OP this? What happens if the horse is severely injured? Do you pay for that? Or do you get to bail and leave the owner with the vet bills and the rehab?

                      Like someone said up-thread - the horse is often NOT better off in a lease situation, free or otherwise. So the whole "scam to get horsie trained" is usually BS. Usually it is the trainer who gets what they want out of these deals.

                      SCFarm
                      The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

                      www.southern-cross-farm.com

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Doodlebug1 View Post

                        I am very surprised at Bogies attitude. Seriously?? Here if you lease a horse out to someone it is their horse.
                        No, it is not her horse. The owner has been footing the bill for however long she's owned the horse and would be on the hook for any long term medical care and, I suspect, major medical problems. Who pays if the horse colics? Who pays if the horse is on stall rest for six months? Is the OP willing to step up and take that kind of responsibility for a free lease? Without exception the people I know who have taken on a free lease situation are those who do not want /cannot take on full time ownership of a horse. In "for fee" lease agreements this is generally spelled out very clearly and yes, the lessee is responsible for the long term care of the horse or needs to come up with the purchase price.

                        Since we do not know what is in her contract, it's hard to say whether or not she has agreed to take that level of responsibility for the horse. We also do not know what type of termination language is included.

                        Next time, find someone who is leasing out their horse because they love their horse and can't bear to part with it but for whatever reason can't ride. I would not lease a horse from someone who 'wants to quit horses'.
                        No, next time spend the time to think through possible outcomes of a lease situation and write it into the contract. Here's where your trainer has let you down. She should have sat the two of you down at the beginning and had this conversation. A simple discussion along the lines of "Ms. Owner, you don't want to ride Trigger right now but what if you change your mind? How would that work?" would have set the expectations for both of you up front. Even a clarification on the "no one else can ride the horse" line would have been appropriate. It's good you had a contract at all -- many people don't -- but very few people have a contract that anticipates the issues that may arise and that's what leads to the misunderstandings. I would NEVER lease out a horse unless I had a way to end the contract if I was unhappy with how the horse was being cared for, ridden, etc. But, I wouldn't spring it on someone halfway through the lease. It would be IN the contract.

                        People's situations change all the time. There's another thread on this board right now from the other side -- someone who had their horse in a free lease situation where the lessee walked away without notice leaving her with unpaid bills. The horse owner has very little choice except to suck it up and pay even though SHE had a contract that included a 30 day notification. yes, she could probably take the lessee to small claims court for the money but just because you get a judgment doesn't mean that you get the money; it only means you're out the time and aggravation.

                        I am sorry that you are in this situation but it happens ALL the time. Remember, whether you are technically right or not, the bottom line is that the horse is not yours and leasing a horse from an owner who is unhappy with you would not be fun.
                        Last edited by Bogie; Jul. 23, 2010, 01:09 PM.
                        Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                        EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          See, I just don't agree with the "ability to play the owner card".. Yes, you are the owner of this wonderful horse that you signed a contract to lease it out. Whether you got a lease fee or not is irrelevant, you still signed away your horse for a period of time.

                          That being said, if the owner of my FREE leased horse wanted to ride occasionally, I would expect him to ask me and I would certainly try to accomodate since I like him and can appreciate that he misses riding his guy. Heck, if he is around I offer to let him get up on his horse. When I part boarded this horse, we both showed him and we were both riding on a schedule and that worked out well. I would certainly not have paid for everything though for half the use.

                          I don't see it as an entitled attitude expecting someone to honor their agreement. I do think that it should have been discussed prior to the owner starting to ride again. If she is riding more than once in a while.. and showing.. the horse then she should be footing some of the bill. Yes she paid for the horse, but she also was the one that looked for someone to lease her horse so that she could get out of paying for its upkeep.

                          But really, just because you have a free lease doesn't make the contract any less valid. I am continually astonished that a fair amount of people in the horse world is generally quite ok with breaking contractual agreements without a second thought.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I think the best case scenario the OP can hope for is that the owner will be agreeable to creating a new, half-lease version of the original contract.

                            OP, good luck at the meeting. If the owner unfortunately doesn't want to play ball, and insists on you still covering 100% of expenses while she starts to ride the horse again, I'd probably say save yourself a headache and get out of the lease. It might turn into a big charlie foxtrot.

                            But... what does the contract say about terminations? This is where you might hang yourself.
                            Lucy (Precious Star) - 1994 TB mare; happily reunited with her colt Touch the Stars

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Bogie View Post
                              No, it is not her horse. The owner has been footing the bill for however long she's owned the horse and would be on the hook for any long term medical care and, I suspect, major medical problems. Who pays if the horse colics?

                              <snip>

                              Since we do not know what is in her contract, it's hard to say whether or not she has agreed to take that level of responsibility for the horse. We also do not know what type of termination language is included.
                              Exactly. We don't know what is in the contract. But your first sentence assumes that the OP does not pay in the event that the horse is injured, but most contracts I have seen do include this clause and require insurance.

                              But regardless, this brings up a good point. If the OP is required to pay for any medical expenses that arise, what happens if the horse is injured when the owner is riding? Is the OP held to the contract and thus she has to pay? Would the OP be required to pay expenses on a horse she can't ride because the horse was injured under the owner's supervision? Now that's a sticky situation.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Not trying to pick on you specifically, but I do want to respond to some of the (very valid) points you're making.

                                Originally posted by Lysara View Post
                                See, I just don't agree with the "ability to play the owner card".. Yes, you are the owner of this wonderful horse that you signed a contract to lease it out. Whether you got a lease fee or not is irrelevant, you still signed away your horse for a period of time.
                                You may be correct. There are many leases written like that - formal and comprehensive. But IME it is usually the case when the horse goes to another facility, another trainer, etc. and is usually because the horse (or lessor) is showing for points.

                                THIS sounds like a much more informal (although at least it is a written down) lease agreement. I really think this affair was the brainchild of said trainer and these two agreed to trainer's "solution" to owner's short term financial and/or time issues and the OP's lack of a ride and/or inability/unwillingness to purchase a horse of her own.

                                That being said, if the owner of my FREE leased horse wanted to ride occasionally, I would expect him to ask me and I would certainly try to accomodate since I like him and can appreciate that he misses riding his guy. Heck, if he is around I offer to let him get up on his horse. When I part boarded this horse, we both showed him and we were both riding on a schedule and that worked out well. I would certainly not have paid for everything though for half the use.
                                THIS! However, this maybe how owner's expectations were set all along. My guess is contract is just not that specific. Under different circumstances, however, this would be out of the question (for many reasons, like showing for points or horse with different trainer at different barn).

                                I don't see it as an entitled attitude expecting someone to honor their agreement. I do think that it should have been discussed prior to the owner starting to ride again. If she is riding more than once in a while.. and showing.. the horse then she should be footing some of the bill. Yes she paid for the horse, but she also was the one that looked for someone to lease her horse so that she could get out of paying for its upkeep.
                                Again, this might be how trainer spun it to the owner. Owner may have no idea there is a problem at all. I've seen this a lot.

                                But really, just because you have a free lease doesn't make the contract any less valid. I am continually astonished that a fair amount of people in the horse world is generally quite ok with breaking contractual agreements without a second thought.
                                I absolutely agree. But we have no idea what is or isn't in this contract. It could be only a lawyer could interpret it. Or it could be so loosely written you could drive a truck through it (and not worth the paper it's written on). Contracts are still only as good as they are written to be, and then maybe only half of that. People still need to understand and abide by the spirit of the agreement for it to really work out well for all involved.

                                I think the OP should talk directly to the owner and ask how she thought this was supposed to work before she gets any more upset. I am not overly optimistic that trainer will fix all. Trainer will fix what suits trainer. It's best for lessee and lessor if they can communicate directly, honestly and kindly with each other. The one who will benefit mostly from that will be the horse.

                                SCFarm
                                The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

                                www.southern-cross-farm.com

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by LLDM View Post

                                  Let me ask the OP this? What happens if the horse is severely injured? Do you pay for that? Or do you get to bail and leave the owner with the vet bills and the rehab?
                                  Thanks for bringing this up- i forgot to mention this somehow haha. we actually added to the contract when it was written up that we would pay for any medical expense that came with the horse while i was leasing him. this is another worry for me with the owner riding ans showing- even though she is a decent rider, accidents do happen and i don't want to be stuck in a contract battle because of it.

                                  also, one point came up about my riding. i've been riding for at least 6 years, if not more ( i've lost track ) and along with my trainer, we've brought the horse into even better shape than he was previously. i did one show with him at 3'6'' a few weeks ago and it was there that my trainer and the owner decided that they were going to truck him to another show the following day for her to show- without me knowing until later that day, after the owner had left. but previous to that the owner had only lessoned once, on a different horse, and only flatted her/my leased horse once or twice.

                                  the meeting is tomorrow night, so i will make sure to update monday. hopefully it will be short and sweet, but i have a sneaking suspision it won't be.

                                  thanks again for everyones posts- it means a lot!

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by bigeq77 View Post
                                    Thanks for bringing this up- i forgot to mention this somehow haha. we actually added to the contract when it was written up that we would pay for any medical expense that came with the horse while i was leasing him. this is another worry for me with the owner riding ans showing- even though she is a decent rider, accidents do happen and i don't want to be stuck in a contract battle because of it.

                                    also, one point came up about my riding. i've been riding for at least 6 years, if not more ( i've lost track ) and along with my trainer, we've brought the horse into even better shape than he was previously. i did one show with him at 3'6'' a few weeks ago and it was there that my trainer and the owner decided that they were going to truck him to another show the following day for her to show- without me knowing until later that day, after the owner had left. but previous to that the owner had only lessoned once, on a different horse, and only flatted her/my leased horse once or twice.

                                    the meeting is tomorrow night, so i will make sure to update monday. hopefully it will be short and sweet, but i have a sneaking suspision it won't be.

                                    thanks again for everyones posts- it means a lot!
                                    Yes please do let us know how it goes and good luck! The fact that it states in the contract that you will pay if the horse gets hurt/sick gives you even more of a case against the owner riding.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by bigeq77 View Post
                                      Thanks for bringing this up- i forgot to mention this somehow haha. we actually added to the contract when it was written up that we would pay for any medical expense that came with the horse while i was leasing him. this is another worry for me with the owner riding ans showing- even though she is a decent rider, accidents do happen and i don't want to be stuck in a contract battle because of it.
                                      So what is the penalty if you break the lease? While it is common for lessors to pay normal/usual vet bills (so they don't over use/abuse the horse). But what in the contract that enforces you to pay major medical expenses rather than just walking away or breaking the lease?

                                      I am assuming you are not very old, or you would understand a whole lot more about how contracts work - ro don't - in the real world.

                                      Please realize that as a lessee, you liability is VERY limited. The horse and its bills, health and welfare are ALL ultimately the responsibility of his owner. No contract will alleviate that, only somewhat mitigate it if the contract is truely well written and legally enforceable.

                                      also, one point came up about my riding. i've been riding for at least 6 years, if not more ( i've lost track ) and along with my trainer, we've brought the horse into even better shape than he was previously. i did one show with him at 3'6'' a few weeks ago and it was there that my trainer and the owner decided that they were going to truck him to another show the following day for her to show- without me knowing until later that day, after the owner had left. but previous to that the owner had only lessoned once, on a different horse, and only flatted her/my leased horse once or twice.
                                      Well, there is your answer! Trainer and Owner decided. Ergo, trainer is the one setting expectations. I don't have a lot of hope for you that this meeting is going to go the way you want it to. If you really like this horse and want exclusive riding privileges, why not buy it? That way any improvements you make in the horse will be "safe" and you can reap a profit when/if you sell.

                                      the meeting is tomorrow night, so i will make sure to update monday. hopefully it will be short and sweet, but i have a sneaking suspision it won't be.

                                      thanks again for everyones posts- it means a lot!
                                      My suspicion is that it will be very short. Good luck. I know it's frustrating, but the bottom line is that it is not your horse. And even if you ride it better than the owner, it doesn't give any more rights to it.

                                      Seriously, I don't think the trainer is looking out for your best interests here. (or the owner's, or the horse's)

                                      SCFarm
                                      The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

                                      www.southern-cross-farm.com

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                                      • #39
                                        RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                        Trainer is okay with this?!?! You leased the horse, and are responsible for it's well being during the lease. Another person (and I don't care who it is) should not be taking horse off property without your knowledge, or riding it. This lease is not in your favour.

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                                        • #40
                                          I think my situation maybe helpful to you...

                                          I own 2 pathetic pasture potatoes. I started leasing a nice QH eventer after college in 2005. At the end of the summer, the owners said they would like me to hang on to him, and I happily agreed.

                                          Now, it has been 5 years. In the past 5 years, we had a contract for maybe 2 of them, then just didn't bother. I pay for all of his expenses and he lives at my house. Before that I boarded him. I do not pay the owner.

                                          Basically, the horse is mine. They have told me they don't want him back. They just don't want to sell him. At least they have a notorized document that if anything happens to them the horse goes to me.

                                          I am pretty happy about the situation. It's kinda like a back-up plan. If he coliced or had a terrible injury, I would obviously consult them, but I can't necessarily afford a lot of care for him. I think they would help out. They helped out with the cost of doxy when he had lyme a few years ago (I had no idea treating lyme cost almost 1K).

                                          One summer when I was boarding him the mom (it was her son's horse) wanted to take some lessons on him and I agreed to it. She doesn't canter and just did WT circles with him pretty much. Learning to post He was a good boy and I was proud of him. He is kinda marish (yup I just said that).

                                          Anyways, just wanted to say that a wierd lease situation can turn out well for all involved.

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