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Why do people jump so much?

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  • #21
    Read this, horses got worked A LOT back then, too....1940s.... with out the vet advances we have today, saddle improvements, etc.

    https://www.amazon.com/Renegade-Cham.../dp/1589799585

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    • #22
      Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post

      OP, I think you'd be surprised by the ages of some of the well-known, successful hunters out there. Garfield has been showing since I was a junior, which was longer ago than I'd like to think about, and is still winning at shows like Devon in the 3'6" classes.
      I just clicked through the current national rankings of the top Junior Hunters--the most common age there seems to be around 12, with a few younger, a few older. Clicking through my Zone, it appears most of the horses at the top of the rankings have 8-10 shows for the year, so given that we're halfway through the year, is less than every-other week of showing. Most of them, and most of the better Eq horses, also go on from rider to rider for years to teach them the ropes, and keep winning. Uncomfortable, unsound horses can't do that.

      I'd also point out that Hunters aren't the only ones using Adequan/Chiro/Massage/Magnets/WooWooDuJour for their horses. It's pretty prevalent across all the disciplines with which I'm familiar--including Dressage (no fences involved!) and Eventing. IMHO, the DQs seem particularly fond of that sort of maintenance. And I don't think that's at all out of line with the kind of therapies and maintenance athletes in other high performance sports do for themselves. Good human gyms keep masseurs on staff for a reason, and it's not the crystals and twinkly candles feel-good experience.
      A Year In the Saddle

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      • #23
        Almost any week long show Wednesday and Thursday pro rides in say pre green 2nd year and some lows. Friday ,Sat, Sun A/A hunter and A/A Eq.. Maybe a Derby. A few years ago I saw lot of one horse doing two derbies (sometimes in one night - One open derby with a pro and next an A/Jr derby . That is vanishing thank goodness). Low classes for the weekend. There you go .

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        • #24
          Yeah, most classes under 3' aren't rated and even if being hosted at a Rated show, doubt anybody keeps track of how many low, modified, low, warm up, schooling, Pre Adult, Pre Child etc that horse is doing in those 6 rings running dusk to Dawn all week, plus lessons, besides it's Rated classes,Typically it's the 3' horses that get the lower, unrated classes piled on, not the celebrity status Juniors and top level Derby horses

          The training and learning to ride takes place and the AA shows because the consolidation of dates into mega circuits has killed the B and C Rated shows as well as the local shows as trainers take everybody to the mega show with classes for everybody instead of just a few to a local running on the same weekend.

          Virginia has been the outlier, still running non rateds but heard their attendance is dropping with a nearby mega circuit beefing up its schedule and facilitie to offer trainers one stop showing for their whole client list.

          Things change
          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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          • #25
            The majority of career ending injuries I have seen over the past 20+ years could have been predicted. Of course there are freak accidents or completely unpredictable situations, but many should have been seen a mile away.

            Chronically riding a horse inverted, poor farrier care, disregarding medical advice, being unable to identify or unwilling to acknowledge minor issues before they become major lameness, improper rehabbing injuries, inadequate or unsafe turnout, etc. are all more damaging than an athletic horse cantering over a few fences most rides.



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            • #26
              Everyone needs to remember that while we love horses, it is a sport, and there are numerous people trying to run business with a lot of money at stake.
              What I see is different types of people.
              a) People who are in it to win, they love to compete, and they have the money to keep buying and selling horses. Some of these people are just doing what they're told, some don't care if the horse has to be retired early, and some have so much money that they have a field full of retired show horses at home.
              b)People like myself who love to compete, but my horses are still "pets", and I try to do what's best for them so that they remain useful to me as long as possible. I'll be paying for them until they die.
              c)People who are uneducated and just don't have good mentors.

              I do a lot of pole work with my horses. They flat 4 days/wk, jump once per week, and do 5-10 shows per year. Both show from 3'-3'6". We rarely jump that high at home unless it's part of a gymnastic.

              I worked for years as an A circuit groom and the barn manager. None of the horses in either barn jumped more than twice a week. At shows they were limited by the trainers to 2 divisions over a show (ie one pro division and one jr/am division). They would add ticketed schoolings if someone was having an issue. Some would also do an eq, medal, or derby. Some of the older horses were saved for special classes or shows.

              I think it's a gross assumption that every show horse is jumping 4 days/wk year round. And as a lifelong Nordic skier and long distance runner, I don't think there's anything wrong with ramping up the work as long as the horse was fit to begin with, and as long as they get some down time to mentally and physically recharge.

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                In my area, people can now do rated shows 20 weeks straight, from November 30 to April 26...And they are quite popular. That's 20 shows before the "old" show season would have really started. That is not the only mega-circuit that has sprung up. My reference to old timers isn't because there was no overuse in the prior decades...It's because it takes being an old timer to see how what we do with them at 5 catches up at 15, 20, and 25. No one has yet explained to me how and why the juniors and amateurs funding these shows have been persuaded that this is a good use of their horse, time, and money. I remain concerned that people have put status consciousness ahead of horse welfare, and that over schooling and over showing are the new normal. The "celebrity" show hunters may or may not be affected, but there are reams of mid level barns and kids trying desperately to prove that they belong in that world, and drilling horses in the process. Why?

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                • #28
                  Why? Why do people do anything? Because they are having fun, or gaining status or making money. That's why. If we were truly concerned about animal welfare, it would be a very different sport. Jumping is fun. If you are going to win, you have to practice A LOT. If you are wealthy, you have a string of horses to practice - Georgina Bloomberg has over 30, Jennifer Gates almost the same. If you are not, you just use what you have. But to be successful, you have to put in the hours and that's not always easy for the animal.
                  kenyagirl

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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Wow. People are critical of the Amish in our area because of their utilitarian view towards horses--that they are a resource to be used. I was bothered, long, long ago, about a McClain Ward quote in the New York Times, in which he described horses as a commodity, and said (as a pretty young junior), "Our commodity just happens to be horses." But unless I am missing the sarcasm, kenyarider, you make no apologies for calling horses a commodity to have fun, gain status, or make money.

                    Even though I grew up in the horse business, I cannot say that I share this mentality. I have done a lot in horses...started babies, restarted OTTBs, A circuit, fox hunting, Pony Club, IHSA, IEA, hunter paces, dressage shows, combined tests, low level eventing, taught lessons, helped coach college riding program, taken kids to shows, groomed for a BNT and FEI rider in WEF fresh out of high school, rode in Europe...I have been part of a parent's workaday lesson program, and a stepparent's import/show/sales program, and have really seen the spectrum. Now that I am a little older and making good money independently of horses, here is what I CHOOSE to do with my horses, time, and money (and none of it involves trying to emulate billionaires' children): they get turned out in big grassy fields most of the day in herds. We don't sell, to anyone. We teach beginner lessons, including to low income and refugee kids. We go to a handful of local and recognized shows. We trail ride. We dabble in dressage. We care for the oldsters. We take on horses and ponies stepping down and try to give them useful, pleasant second and third careers. We give the more experienced riders a chance to develop green horses. We try to teach the students respect for the animals, appreciation for nature, enthusiasm for learning, work ethic, and grit. I cannot imagine doing the work we do, and spending the money we do, if there was not a profound sense of awe and appreciation for the horse at the center of it.

                    There are plenty of ways to social climb that don't involve pounding a horse, if that's all that is motivating people. I love hunters and I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, but the veneration of the A circuit lifestyle at the expense of horsemanship is not something I will ever condone, and I wish more people could speak up about "all things in moderation," without being dismissed as "not knowing what it takes," or "never having been of our world to know."

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by StormyDay View Post

                      The majority of shows these days have a cap on the amount of classes per day, so I am not sure how a horse could be competing in 3 divisions. Even two would be stretching it, since the cap is usually 7-8classes a day and the average hunter division has 3 to 4 rounds a day. Which show did you see that at?
                      Horse could do two pro divisions and two junior/amateur divisions at a five-day show. So four divisions, but over two sets of days. Not that this is necessarily a good thing, but I can think of a horse that did this at at least one show last fall. And another (that ended up fried) that was doing that plus a few eq/medal classes.

                      Is there really a cap? Not saying you're wrong, but I hadn't seen that rule, at least in USEF. Not that I'm planning on putting a horse in that many classes in a day.
                      The Evil Chem Prof

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Peggy View Post

                        Horse could do two pro divisions and two junior/amateur divisions at a five-day show. So four divisions, but over two sets of days. Not that this is necessarily a good thing, but I can think of a horse that did this at at least one show last fall. And another (that ended up fried) that was doing that plus a few eq/medal classes.

                        Is there really a cap? Not saying you're wrong, but I hadn't seen that rule, at least in USEF. Not that I'm planning on putting a horse in that many classes in a day.
                        It is definitely not a USEF or USHJA rule, but at least in this area a lot of the shows say in the fine print on the prize list 'No horse may enter more than 8 classes a day' or something similar. I have seen this at a show in Va and ones in NC.
                        I guess trainers could argue it with management though. But I don't think it is all that common for trainers to be pushing expensive horses to do that much, even unethical trainers, especially at AA shows. It doesn't make financial sense to fry your investment.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Bending Line View Post
                          Wow. People are critical of the Amish in our area because of their utilitarian view towards horses--that they are a resource to be used. I was bothered, long, long ago, about a McClain Ward quote in the New York Times, in which he described horses as a commodity, and said (as a pretty young junior), "Our commodity just happens to be horses." But unless I am missing the sarcasm, kenyarider, you make no apologies for calling horses a commodity to have fun, gain status, or make money.

                          Even though I grew up in the horse business, I cannot say that I share this mentality. I have done a lot in horses...started babies, restarted OTTBs, A circuit, fox hunting, Pony Club, IHSA, IEA, hunter paces, dressage shows, combined tests, low level eventing, taught lessons, helped coach college riding program, taken kids to shows, groomed for a BNT and FEI rider in WEF fresh out of high school, rode in Europe...I have been part of a parent's workaday lesson program, and a stepparent's import/show/sales program, and have really seen the spectrum. Now that I am a little older and making good money independently of horses, here is what I CHOOSE to do with my horses, time, and money (and none of it involves trying to emulate billionaires' children): they get turned out in big grassy fields most of the day in herds. We don't sell, to anyone. We teach beginner lessons, including to low income and refugee kids. We go to a handful of local and recognized shows. We trail ride. We dabble in dressage. We care for the oldsters. We take on horses and ponies stepping down and try to give them useful, pleasant second and third careers. We give the more experienced riders a chance to develop green horses. We try to teach the students respect for the animals, appreciation for nature, enthusiasm for learning, work ethic, and grit. I cannot imagine doing the work we do, and spending the money we do, if there was not a profound sense of awe and appreciation for the horse at the center of it.

                          There are plenty of ways to social climb that don't involve pounding a horse, if that's all that is motivating people. I love hunters and I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, but the veneration of the A circuit lifestyle at the expense of horsemanship is not something I will ever condone, and I wish more people could speak up about "all things in moderation," without being dismissed as "not knowing what it takes," or "never having been of our world to know."
                          I am not a hunter but I love your post!!!!
                          https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                          https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Bending Line View Post
                            Wow. People are critical of the Amish in our area because of their utilitarian view towards horses--that they are a resource to be used. I was bothered, long, long ago, about a McClain Ward quote in the New York Times, in which he described horses as a commodity, and said (as a pretty young junior), "Our commodity just happens to be horses." But unless I am missing the sarcasm, kenyarider, you make no apologies for calling horses a commodity to have fun, gain status, or make money.

                            Even though I grew up in the horse business, I cannot say that I share this mentality. I have done a lot in horses...started babies, restarted OTTBs, A circuit, fox hunting, Pony Club, IHSA, IEA, hunter paces, dressage shows, combined tests, low level eventing, taught lessons, helped coach college riding program, taken kids to shows, groomed for a BNT and FEI rider in WEF fresh out of high school, rode in Europe...I have been part of a parent's workaday lesson program, and a stepparent's import/show/sales program, and have really seen the spectrum. Now that I am a little older and making good money independently of horses, here is what I CHOOSE to do with my horses, time, and money (and none of it involves trying to emulate billionaires' children): they get turned out in big grassy fields most of the day in herds. We don't sell, to anyone. We teach beginner lessons, including to low income and refugee kids. We go to a handful of local and recognized shows. We trail ride. We dabble in dressage. We care for the oldsters. We take on horses and ponies stepping down and try to give them useful, pleasant second and third careers. We give the more experienced riders a chance to develop green horses. We try to teach the students respect for the animals, appreciation for nature, enthusiasm for learning, work ethic, and grit. I cannot imagine doing the work we do, and spending the money we do, if there was not a profound sense of awe and appreciation for the horse at the center of it.

                            There are plenty of ways to social climb that don't involve pounding a horse, if that's all that is motivating people. I love hunters and I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, but the veneration of the A circuit lifestyle at the expense of horsemanship is not something I will ever condone, and I wish more people could speak up about "all things in moderation," without being dismissed as "not knowing what it takes," or "never having been of our world to know."
                            I was being ironic. Horses very recently became pets, before that they were machines. Many still think of them as "slaves", "beasts of burden". So what is your point? I suspect you are trolling and looking for a fight. Please stop.
                            kenyagirl

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                            • #34
                              I have been told ( do not know if it is fact) that in the UK showing rules limit a horse to 2 or perhaps 3 jumping classes (inclusive of jump offs) per day per show. That makes 8 classes a day excessive in comparison, even taking account of jumper rounds with jump offs versus hunter rounds.
                              A canter is a cure for every evil. ~Benjamin Disraeli

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                OP I too suspect you are a troll. This is a pretty self explanatory topic. There are people who care and people who don't. There are people with short term goals and people with long term goals.

                                That's great that you treat your horses like royalty. If you don't like how other people treat their horses then go do something about it. Talk to show management, talk to trainers, pony club, lesson kids, give a seminar, etc.

                                In my region horses are limited to 2 divisions plus equitation and specialty classes (ie derbies) over the course of a show. It's stated in the prize list at both A and B shows. I don't personally know anyone who over jumps their horses, and I've never noticed it at any of the barns that I've boarded at or worked at over the years.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  In my country (eastern Europe) we do not have hunters but we do have jumpers. And in here a horse can jump max 2 classes in a day (jump offs excluded). It is extremely weird to read about hunters jumping 6 or 7 classes a day.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Bending Line View Post
                                    Wow. People are critical of the Amish in our area because of their utilitarian view towards horses--that they are a resource to be used. I was bothered, long, long ago, about a McClain Ward quote in the New York Times, in which he described horses as a commodity, and said (as a pretty young junior), "Our commodity just happens to be horses." But unless I am missing the sarcasm, kenyarider, you make no apologies for calling horses a commodity to have fun, gain status, or make money.

                                    Even though I grew up in the horse business, I cannot say that I share this mentality. I have done a lot in horses...started babies, restarted OTTBs, A circuit, fox hunting, Pony Club, IHSA, IEA, hunter paces, dressage shows, combined tests, low level eventing, taught lessons, helped coach college riding program, taken kids to shows, groomed for a BNT and FEI rider in WEF fresh out of high school, rode in Europe...I have been part of a parent's workaday lesson program, and a stepparent's import/show/sales program, and have really seen the spectrum. Now that I am a little older and making good money independently of horses, here is what I CHOOSE to do with my horses, time, and money (and none of it involves trying to emulate billionaires' children): they get turned out in big grassy fields most of the day in herds. We don't sell, to anyone. We teach beginner lessons, including to low income and refugee kids. We go to a handful of local and recognized shows. We trail ride. We dabble in dressage. We care for the oldsters. We take on horses and ponies stepping down and try to give them useful, pleasant second and third careers. We give the more experienced riders a chance to develop green horses. We try to teach the students respect for the animals, appreciation for nature, enthusiasm for learning, work ethic, and grit. I cannot imagine doing the work we do, and spending the money we do, if there was not a profound sense of awe and appreciation for the horse at the center of it.

                                    There are plenty of ways to social climb that don't involve pounding a horse, if that's all that is motivating people. I love hunters and I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, but the veneration of the A circuit lifestyle at the expense of horsemanship is not something I will ever condone, and I wish more people could speak up about "all things in moderation," without being dismissed as "not knowing what it takes," or "never having been of our world to know."


                                    My heavens, it seems as if there isn't a part of the high level horse world you haven't touched, right down to teaching riding to refugee kids. That is quite a resume!!

                                    Though I certainly do not have your wide breadth in the equine industry, my experience, as you know- a non-troll, is posts made to stir the pot etc distract from any real interests or problems.

                                    School is clearly out and apparently- it is going to be a long summer on COTH.
                                    Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      OP, did you actually want to have a discussion about this, or are you just looking for everyone to agree with you and bemoan the state of horsemanship today because everything was better back in the day?

                                      Just wondering what the plan is.
                                      http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                                      Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
                                        OP, did you actually want to have a discussion about this, or are you just looking for everyone to agree with you and bemoan the state of horsemanship today because everything was better back in the day?

                                        Just wondering what the plan is.
                                        I think the plan was for us to admit that we're awful, awful people who jump our horses over 10000000 jumps, 8 days a week, because at best, we consider them machines, and at worst, we actually hate them.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I think its all about moderation and balance in every single discipline. I have my horse at home and ride down the road to a barn to use their rings. They are barrel racers and there are a lot of issues with barrel racers running their horses over and over at home. I think there are people in every discipline that overschool the "fun stuff" whether that be jumping, running barrels, advanced dressage work, galloping miles of open fields, etc. Its always been about balance. Balance in training, turnout vs stall time, preventative healthcare, even feed. It wasn't until college that I really began to understand, appreciate, and look forward to flat work. I jump once a week now as a way to test where we are. I find 95% of any jumping issues are really flat issues. On Sunday we were really rushing the jumps to the right. Thats because we are crooked in the right lead canter. So this week we will work on getting straighter at the canter to the right and reevaluate our progress when we jump on Sunday
                                          Hudson Valley's Premier Tack Shop www.argentoeq.com/

                                          Life is happening for us not to us

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