• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Question about Juniors Getting Paid

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Question about Juniors Getting Paid

    So obviously I know that as a junior rider, you can't be paid to ride people's horses because that technically makes you a professional.

    However, I've been told recently that a junior rider can not be paid to groom at a horse show either. I don't really understand that since grooming isn't getting paid to ride, which is what you'd be doing as a junior.

    So my question is: is this true? Can you not be paid to groom at a horse show and still compete as a junior rider? As a last-year junior, I was planning on working at shows to save money for college in addition to working for extra rides and lessons as a working student as I have for the past four years.

    Thanks!
    "To accomplish great things we must not only act, but dream; not only plan, but also believe."

  • #2
    Juniors can't be professionals; they are juniors. You can get paid.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
    Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Amigo View Post
      So obviously I know that as a junior rider, you can't be paid to ride people's horses because that technically makes you a professional.
      This is not true. A junior can be paid to ride, teach...to do anything.

      A junior is defined by age. There is nothing a junior can do, short of getting older, than makes her NOT a junior any more.
      Originally posted by tidy rabbit
      Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Amigo View Post
        So obviously I know that as a junior rider, you can't be paid to ride people's horses because that technically makes you a professional.
        Nope, doesn't make you a professional. Only things you do AFTER you age out of Juniors can make you a professional. You are still a Junior. The only criteria for being a Junior is your age.

        However, I've been told recently that a junior rider can not be paid to groom at a horse show either. I don't really understand that since grooming isn't getting paid to ride, which is what you'd be doing as a junior.
        Nope, doesn't make you a professional. Only things you do AFTER you age out of Juniors can make you a professional. You are still a Junior. The only criteria for being a Junior is your age.

        So my question is: is this true? Can you not be paid to groom at a horse show and still compete as a junior rider?
        Yes, doesn't make you a professional. Only things you do AFTER you age out of Juniors can make you a professional. You are still a Junior. The only criteria for being a Junior is your age.


        As a last-year junior, I was planning on working at shows to save money for college in addition to working for extra rides and lessons as a working student as I have for the past four years.

        Thanks!
        Sounds like a plan.
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          ^Ditto.

          you don't need to worry about pro status until you are OVER 18. you CAN get paid to ride/ groom/ teach etc... (lucky )
          When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

          Comment


          • #6
            I suggest you build a huge fortune via hard work in the horse industry before your 18th birthday. You may have to pay taxes, but it won't make you a pro in USEF's eyes.

            ETA: That may be before the January 1 of the calendar year in which you turn 19. Or the year when you turn 18?
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • #7
              December 1.

              From the Amateur rules
              a person is an amateur
              for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as
              defined in GR101,
              has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make
              him/her a professional.
              and here is GR101
              GR101 Adult or Senior (Individual).
              1. An individual who has reached his 18th birthday as of December 1st of the current
              competition year
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • #8
                looking for the simple version!! haha like there is one

                After ones 18th birthday, can one still ride and show (with mom and dad footing the bill), as a ammy, but hold a job as a groom while in college? And receive payment in terms of a paycheck, and if not, how about the payment being deducted from the horse bill? I'm going to USEF now, but figured out post it here for the abbreviated version!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  After ones 18th birthday, can one still ride and show (with mom and dad footing the bill), as a ammy, but hold a job as a groom while in college? And receive payment in terms of a paycheck, and if not, how about the payment being deducted from the horse bill? I'm going to USEF now, but figured out post it here for the abbreviated version!!
                  One cannot work as a groom for their own trainer and receive remuneration - either as a paycheck or in any sort of reduction on bills. It doesn't matter who is paying the bills, if the rider is over 18 and receiving remuneration and riding horses around the barn, they are professional.

                  One could, if I recall correctly, work as a groom for another trainer and receive a paycheck provided they never ride, train, or show any of their horses. This is why a working student is by default a pro.
                  ---
                  They're small hearts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hunter/JumperMom View Post
                    looking for the simple version!! haha like there is one

                    After ones 18th birthday, can one still ride and show (with mom and dad footing the bill), as a ammy, but hold a job as a groom while in college? And receive payment in terms of a paycheck, and if not, how about the payment being deducted from the horse bill? I'm going to USEF now, but figured out post it here for the abbreviated version!!
                    Yes, but only if you never-ever-ever ride or train ANY horse connected with the barn except the horses you actually own or lease. If you so much as exercise a horse for another boarder who is away (or take a lesson on another horse) you would no longer be an amateur.

                    It doesn't make any difference if your remuneration is a pay check or reduced board.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      so what do kids do that go to college, and want to work at the barn instead of the grocery store? Declare themselves pro, and show in open classes?

                      So it doesnt matter what your riding ability is? I guess thats the part of the rule I don't get.

                      Watched a junior rider yesterday, showed in the big eq, the high jr jumper, low jr jumper, large jr hunter, open stake, and grand prix, multiple horses, and kid is a great rider, but she would still be able to show as an ammy, but the kid that has one horse and has to hold a job, wants to groom cause it is flexible with college and riding, can't?

                      Just trying to comprehend!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, exactly. Because once they're 18, they aren't kids anymore, they're grown ups in the real world with the rest of us, and riding ability isn't actually a factor in the amateur rules.

                        so what do kids do that go to college, and want to work at the barn instead of the grocery store? Declare themselves pro, and show in open classes?
                        A kid that needs to work for the money will find very quickly that just about ANYTHING else pays more than barn work, really. If they prefer the barn over the grocery store, there are consequences with that. It's pretty rare that someone "has" to work at the barn unless there are absolutely no other possible employment opportunities, even now. If that's the case, unfortunately, it is what it is.

                        So it doesnt matter what your riding ability is? I guess thats the part of the rule I don't get.
                        This is how the rules are written, most likely because the USEF couldn't find another threshold to prove "amatuer" abilities.

                        Watched a junior rider yesterday, showed in the big eq, the high jr jumper, low jr jumper, large jr hunter, open stake, and grand prix, multiple horses, and kid is a great rider, but she would still be able to show as an ammy, but the kid that has one horse and has to hold a job, wants to groom cause it is flexible with college and riding, can't?
                        No, that kid CAN still show as an ammy. They just can't ride or train or show anything at the barn they're working for, period. Or they can have a job outside of horses.

                        It's not an elitist thing. It's to stop people from being employed as a "groom" when they're really riding 5 horses a day for trainer, which is equally unfair to those that are truly amateurs.
                        ---
                        They're small hearts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ability has nothing to do with amateur rules- it has to do with whether you profit from riding, teaching, or training.

                          To be an amateur, you can't earn any money for riding, teaching or training horses or riders.

                          Lots of people abused this rule by being employed as a "babysitter" or "stall mucker" for their trainer, when in fact they were riding and showing 10 horses per day and operating as a trainer.

                          To curb this problem, USEF requires that people who work in barns/for trainers may do so, and remain amateurs, so long as they don't ride horses that the trainer owns or profits off of (boards, trains, etc.).

                          One can work in a barn in any capacity other than rider, trainer, coach, instructor (i.e. babysitter, stall mucker, groom, bookkeeper, receptionist, etc.) and remain an amateur so long as the rider does not throw a leg over any horse at that barn that she doesn't own or USEF lease. No hacking the owners horses or the boarders horses, no lessons on other horses, no teaching even one lesson.

                          In short, a rider who is paid $$ or free board or free lessons as a groom can stay an amatuer as long as they stay on their own horses.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trixie View Post
                            One cannot work as a groom for their own trainer and receive remuneration - either as a paycheck or in any sort of reduction on bills. It doesn't matter who is paying the bills, if the rider is over 18 and receiving remuneration and riding horses around the barn, they are professional.
                            .
                            NOT true. you can groom, as long as you don't ride.
                            When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It doesn't matter who is paying the bills, if the rider is over 18 and receiving remuneration and riding horses around the barn, they are professional.
                              Yep, true. But should have phrased it more clearly- riding horses that they don't own around the barn.

                              You can ride your OWN horse.

                              The rule actually says:

                              c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
                              ---
                              They're small hearts.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Hunter/JumperMom View Post
                                Watched a junior rider yesterday, showed in the big eq, the high jr jumper, low jr jumper, large jr hunter, open stake, and grand prix, multiple horses, and kid is a great rider, she would still be able to show as an ammy,

                                but

                                the kid that has one horse and has to hold a job, wants to groom (including riding) cause it is flexible with college and riding, can't?
                                I made it easier to read.

                                Easy way to define am/pro- Is person in question spending or making money.

                                In your examples, kid #1 is spending (a lot). spending=ammie

                                Kid #2 is making money (although probably not much). Riding job=making $$= pro. If she does NOT ride (or at least, not when anyone is watching) then she can remain an ammie.

                                Ammie= someone who does not ride or teach for money or compensation. Regardless of abiltity. I think it's retarded too, but it's the rules.
                                When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Alterrain View Post
                                  I made it easier to read.

                                  Easy way to define am/pro- Is person in question spending or making money.

                                  In your examples, kid #1 is spending (a lot). spending=ammie

                                  Kid #2 is making money (although probably not much). Riding job=making $$= pro. If she does NOT ride (or at least, not when anyone is watching) then she can remain an ammie.

                                  Ammie= someone who does not ride or teach for money or compensation. Regardless of abiltity. I think it's retarded too, but it's the rules.

                                  I agree its retarded.... the intent is correct but the application just doesn't work all that well.

                                  What it means that most kids without independent means (big money) the ones that spent all of their junior years as working students just to be able to show are quite limited in their choices - they can cut back their riding to fit their non-existent budgets, they can turn pro before they are really ready or what....

                                  Even the programs that are now in place (Emerging Athletes which is a great step) do not cover these young riders with ambition, work ethic and desire but without money...

                                  It would be nice to see some accomodation that helps to develop the horsemen that the sport says it wants in a way that realistically addresses the economic environment and costs of the sport

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by justathought View Post
                                    I agree its retarded.... the intent is correct but the application just doesn't work all that well.

                                    What it means that most kids without independent means (big money) the ones that spent all of their junior years as working students just to be able to show are quite limited in their choices - they can cut back their riding to fit their non-existent budgets, they can turn pro before they are really ready or what....

                                    Even the programs that are now in place (Emerging Athletes which is a great step) do not cover these young riders with ambition, work ethic and desire but without money...

                                    It would be nice to see some accomodation that helps to develop the horsemen that the sport says it wants in a way that realistically addresses the economic environment and costs of the sport
                                    Oh, honey. Now you're catching on.

                                    Yes, the rules are baroque. But that's because people with talent and "no money"-- but let's be clear, enough to have learned to ride well enough to get the pro-like rides and show against ammies-- were finding all ways to cheat.

                                    This will sound too strong, but the USEF and trainers that mainly run it really aren't interested in the adults who can't spend a lot of money. The junior who was great helps no one of any consequence by riding well and being given opportunity.

                                    FWIW, I don't think the EA program reaches terribly far down the socioeconomic ladder to find riding talent. Again, one person's idea of "no money" is not the same as another's.
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      What it means that most kids without independent means (big money) the ones that spent all of their junior years as working students just to be able to show are quite limited in their choices - they can cut back their riding to fit their non-existent budgets, they can turn pro before they are really ready or what....
                                      Are these kids without "big money" going to be making that big money by working in a barn? Or training and hacking horses? Do you think that's actually going to pay for campaigning a horse?

                                      Sorry, but you just don't make big money riding, even if you DO get paid. If you spent your childhood as a working student, you've already got an advantage over the people who didn't have that opportunity. It's never going to be "fair."

                                      Nothing about showing at the "A" shows in this sport is economically realistic for most families, regardless of whether you're riding at Grand Prix or in the unrated crossrail division.

                                      I personally have more of a problem with the rules of A/O classes as opposed to amateur status.
                                      ---
                                      They're small hearts.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Trixie View Post
                                        A kid that needs to work for the money will find very quickly that just about ANYTHING else pays more than barn work, really. If they prefer the barn over the grocery store, there are consequences with that. It's pretty rare that someone "has" to work at the barn unless there are absolutely no other possible employment opportunities, even now. If that's the case, unfortunately, it is what it is.


                                        I disagree. I've groomed when I was a junior making $100/day, worked out to about $12 an hour.... Now as a college student (and an ammie) I make a little over $8 an hour making people's coffee at Starbucks. Not to mention on a nice day I'd rather be outside at a horse show

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X