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After PPE, how to say I'll pass??

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  • After PPE, how to say I'll pass??

    So, I just had a PPE on a horse and it wasn't what I wanted to hear for my hunter prospect. How much information do I tell the owner, do I go into all the details that the vet told me or do I just say he isn't suitable for my needs? It's too bad since he was a cutie and I did really like him. I don't want to be negative when I talk to the owner but I'm sure she'll ask why.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dapple Dawn Farm View Post
    So, I just had a PPE on a horse and it wasn't what I wanted to hear for my hunter prospect. How much information do I tell the owner, do I go into all the details that the vet told me or do I just say he isn't suitable for my needs? It's too bad since he was a cutie and I did really like him. I don't want to be negative when I talk to the owner but I'm sure she'll ask why.
    You should absolutely release ALL of the vet records to the owner of the horse. You don't have to say what you think about them, just

    "After the vetting, I have decided this horse is not for me. I have made sure to release all the vet records so that you have access to them as well. Thank you for your time."
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    • #3
      Well, I am sure she would like to know the reason, but that's up to you. I had one not "pass" the PPE because it was three once. Well, ummm, yeah, I told you it was three. Would have made for sense for them to just say she isn't the one.
      Trinity Hill Farm

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      • #4
        The information from your vet is yours, not the owners, BUT if you want to give them this info, it would be generous,so they at least know what issues he horse has on a PPE.
        http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

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        • #5
          Yes, its very nice to release the vet records to the owner of the horse- but there is no obligation- you paid for the exam and it is yours and your vets. You simply call and let them know as a result of the exam you have decided that it isn't the horse for you. See if they ask any follow-up questions. If you want to share more, you can- otherwise just politely get off the phone.

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          • #6
            Agreed on the last two posts. You paid for the information, you are not required to release that information.

            "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

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            • #7
              I don't understand what benefit it is to the buyer to refuse to divulge the vet records to the owner of the horse. Yes they paid for it and it is their "right" but why on earth be so assinine?

              You don't have to get into your PERSONAL interpretation of the records (i.e., exactly what it was about them that broke the deal for you), but it is mere courtesy to release them to the owner so that they know what is going on with their own horse and can represent him better to other buyers. IMO it is no skin off the buyer's back AT ALL; but maybe I haven't thought of something and someone can explain a situation where it would benefit a buyer who is passing on a horse anyway to keep a stranglehold on the records, or it would harm a buyer who is passing on the horse anyway to release them?
              ???

              And for what? So that the next buyer can do the same exact vetting and find your exact results which the seller didn't know about because you didn't release them? Or the seller has to go vet the horse a second time on their bill so that they can try to figure out what the problem was before continuing to market the horse?

              For this reason from a seller's perspective, I insist that buyers agree from the outset to release the records to me. That records release gets signed before the horse trots one step down the driveway.
              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
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              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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              • #8
                You aren't obligated to release the results, but it is nice to do so. And something to consider is "would you buy him at SOME price based on the PPE?" If so I'd say, "I'm sorry, but based on the PPE, I'm afraid I have to pass. It's too bad, because I really like him, but based on the price I just can't justify it. If in the future you decide to reduce his price down to around "X" please give me a call. Here are copies of the PPE so you have the information I based my decision on." If you wouldn't want him at any price, then I'd just say the first part, and give them the copies of the PPE and thank them for their time.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                  I don't understand what benefit it is to the buyer to refuse to divulge the vet records to the owner of the horse. Yes they paid for it and it is their "right" but why on earth be so assinine?

                  You don't have to get into your PERSONAL interpretation of the records (i.e., exactly what it was about them that broke the deal for you), but it is mere courtesy to release them to the owner so that they know what is going on with their own horse and can represent him better to other buyers. IMO it is no skin off the buyer's back AT ALL; but maybe I haven't thought of something and someone can explain a situation where it would benefit a buyer who is passing on a horse anyway to keep a stranglehold on the records, or it would harm a buyer who is passing on the horse anyway to release them?
                  ???

                  And for what? So that the next buyer can do the same exact vetting and find your exact results which the seller didn't know about because you didn't release them? Or the seller has to go vet the horse a second time on their bill so that they can try to figure out what the problem was before continuing to market the horse?

                  For this reason from a seller's perspective, I insist that buyers agree from the outset to release the records to me. That records release gets signed before the horse trots one step down the driveway.


                  Agreed... Why would anyone choose to keep the results to themself? Ridiculous... Just because its YOURS and YOU paid for it?!

                  Please...
                  www.millcreekfarm.net
                  **RIP Kickstart aka Char 12/2/2009**

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                  • #10
                    Well, one time I passed on a horse due to PPE findings, told the owner what the vet found, and she argued with me that it wasn't that bad of an issue and/or the vet was wrong. After several calls I firmly told her that both MY vet and MY trainer, who I pay for advice, were advising me to pass and that was that, but it was really a pain of a situation.

                    So if I was in this situation again I would just give the minimum info, "based on the PPE I've decided not to buy the horse". If the seller asked for access to the records I'd give it, but I'm not offering up information again.

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                    • #11
                      A friend of mine was selling her horse. The buyers did a PPE, and the vet said the xrays showed he had ringbone (5 year old). The buyers declined, but did release the vetting results. My friend then took THEIR xrays to her vet to review. He said clean.

                      A few months later, she ran into the buyers who still had not found a horse. She mentioned that HER vet said there was no ringbone, diagnosing from THEIR vet's xrays. They agreed to forward the xrays to Morven Park to have them evaluated. Morven Park said there was absolutely no sign of ringbone or any other problem.

                      SO, the original purchaser was able to buy the horse with very little extra cost because they were decent people and released the vet finding.

                      If they won't help you, they may help the next buyer. Someone else's vet report on the horse YOU are interested in may save YOU a lot of money.

                      What goes around comes around.

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                      • #12
                        I believe the PPE results should be public, in so far as letting them know what was found. Now as to whether you should release records, xrays etc, that is up to you but I would be quite irate if someone simply said I won't take him based on PPE. The reason being that, the horse is for sale, if there is some underlying condition, it would be nice to know so that another vet can followup and verify it or treat it. Also, I have seen one vet say something was HORRIBLE on a PPE and another vet find absolutely nothing! I see no reason to not disclose the PPE results verbally, not anymore than I see no reason for a seller to not disclose issues.
                        www.shawneeacres.net

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                        • #13
                          I had a couple of horse fail a PPE and always gave all info to the seller, including x rays.
                          One horse I vetted failed and the owner had no idea the horse had a problem. Her vet confirmed it and the horse was sold as a pleasure horse, instead of a jumper.

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                          • #14
                            I would release the PPE records too.

                            I like the idea (as a seller) of requiring that and think I will add it to my contract--thanks!
                            DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                            • #15
                              Well now, I hate to be the devil's advocate but some sellers may not want to know what is wrong with their horse. You know - seller's disclosure kind of thing.

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                              • #16
                                What difference does passing along the info make if you've decided to pass? If YOU were the seller, would you want them? It goes back to the Golden Rule - treating others as you'd like to be treated. It isn't like you gain anything by NOT giving them the results, and you could save someone else the heartbreak you're trying to avoid.

                                FWIW, if you get a PPE in this area, the owner has to sign off on it. I imagine that they'd thusly be able to access the results as well.
                                A proud friend of bar.ka.

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                                • #17
                                  Vet records...

                                  Well.... after having had several friends and clients pass on horse after horse because of 'failed' PPE, I have to say it is difficult to keep paying for comprehensive veterinary evaluations on other people's horses.

                                  Yes, a vet exam can be incomplete or wrong. Myself I have had the supposed 'same view' radiograph come up very differently when shot by 2 different vets one week apart. One vet did not get the angle quite 'oblique' enough, and the image did not show quite a significant (or two) spur.

                                  So any PPE is subject to either inexperience on the vet's part of just plain human error.

                                  BUT I do feel that if a seller wants the results of a PPE on a 'failed' horse, then they should pay the bill. Buyers shell out $1000 - $2000/horse/comprehensive exam in my neck of the woods. And repeatedly gifting medical diagnostics on other people's horses (those other people, by the way, often do NOT have a recent similarly comprehensive exam report to offer to buyers. They prefer to let potential buyers pay for that privilege.) is, umm, annoying, at best. And it can make the potential buyer feel victimized, at worst.

                                  Sellers are perfectly free to complete a comprehensive, radiographs included, exam on their own horse at anytime.


                                  Far enough up the food chain, it is more common for horses to come with recent vet exam information. Hell, plenty of owners of 6 figure horses do radiographs on their horses every 6 months just to 'keep an eye' on things.

                                  Lower on the food chain, owners can't afford this. So they let buyers take their own chances. Fair enough. If I've got a horse I've been riding for several years that's never been lame, sneezed, coughed, or flicked an ear, then I'm not going to pay for an exam to offer buyers. And I probably won't care what shows up on the exam, because whatever it is the horse has been doing the job without problem.

                                  But I think that it is fair that sellers also 'take their own' chances and realize that what they do not pay for does not belong to them. Often prospective buyers will share information. But I don't agree that sellers are entitled to property paid for by potential buyers. If they are entitled to the results, then in my opinion they are entitled to the bill as well..

                                  I have dealt with all versions of the buyer/seller/agent scenario. And one of the fastest ways to get in BIGGEST trouble is to have presumptions/beliefs about what the other party 'owes' you, 'ought' to do, what would the the 'right' thing, 'honorable' thing, etc.

                                  Have agreements/contracts on all facets of the interaction, otherwise, you never know what the other party's reaction to a 'bump in the road' is going to be.

                                  OP - You can make your best judgement about the 'mindset' of the seller, and tell them as much as you want to. BUT Keep in mind that the seller is going to be receiving unwelcome news, and you don't know what their reaction will be. The safest route is to say the least.

                                  "Thanks for your time, but I think I'll keep looking."

                                  It is sad but true that emotions and egos run hot and rough in the horse business, so good luck.
                                  "Friend" me !

                                  http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                    Yes, a vet exam can be incomplete or wrong. Myself I have had the supposed 'same view' radiograph come up very differently when shot by 2 different vets one week apart.

                                    So any PPE is subject to either inexperience on the vet's part of just plain human error.
                                    So you say that a vet exam can be wrong - inexperience, or human error.

                                    and THEN you say this??

                                    BUT I do feel that if a seller wants the results of a PPE on a 'failed' horse, then they should pay the bill.
                                    So why would a seller pay a bill to a vet that is not of their choosing, and they may not have any confidence in that vet?

                                    If a buyer releases a report, then the seller can at least have their vet check the questionable area out to see if they agree or not. Otherwise they would have to go on a whole body fishing expedition, and may never find what the concern was, especially if just plain "wrong".

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                                    • #19
                                      Well, I don't allow a PPE on a pony UNLESS a signed contract states that I have full disclosure of all findings. It is the buyers choice to exray or not or do other expensive tests... many of which most breeders might not do on a regular basis on all their stock. If a vet finds a problem with one of my ponies, you can be assured that I am the FIRST person that wants to know about the problem, address the treatment if possible and find a solution. How is it beneficial to the potential buyer and certainly the horse or pony in question to keep the findings a secret, regardless of who paid for the exam?
                                      Quicksilver Farms, LLC
                                      "Welsh Hunter Ponies"
                                      Welsh Sec. B Stallions and
                                      Fancy Show Pony Prospects
                                      www.quicksilverponies.com

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                        But I don't agree that sellers are entitled to property paid for by potential buyers. If they are entitled to the results, then in my opinion they are entitled to the bill as well..
                                        OK.

                                        Well then they can also pay me for grooming and tack up, a day lease fee on my horse (property paid for BY ME) they have used on their trial day, AND throw in my hourly rate for the lesson I inevitably end up giving them when they show up without their trainer.
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