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The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.
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Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.
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Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.
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When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:
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The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.
8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.
Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.
Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!
(Revised 2/8/18)
Board Rules
1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.
This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.
Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.
Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.
2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.
3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.
4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.
Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.
Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.
Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:
Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.
Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.
Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.
Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.
Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.
Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.
Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.
5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.
6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.
If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.
Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.
7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.
8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.
Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.
Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!
(Revised 2/8/18)
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Thoughts on Morrissey Controversy?
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What dags said. I love FUGLY, but I can't see getting worked up over the horse show video within a day or two after the posting of the Canadian slaughterhouse video. I did not watch the slaughter video, don't need to. But if the subject is abuse, that's where energy could be directed.
I bet the rider in the video made a judgment to try to fix the horse one last time before giving up on it, and sending it to another career. Not pretty, not nice, but abusive on a lesser scale.Rest in peace Claudius, we will miss you.
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I find this post very interesting. I had a jumper that also had issues with water/liverpools. To answer someone's post about why was he even showing in this class I will share somethings about my horse. His issues were not something that you could count on always being issues. My horse would be perfect one day, maybe perfect for six months and then who knows why one day he wouldn't jump the water. It was completely abitrary. Maybe this horse is like that as well.
As far as abuse. My horse would start by just stopping, or balking like this one did. The next time I headed to the jump if I didn't "nip things in the bud" he might decide to stand straight up on his hind legs. I owned this horse for 3+ years. He was enourmously talented and won a lot, but eventually I sold him out of the show world. The last time we showed he stood up straight for over a minute and I got lucky that he didn't flip on me. He was dangerous.
I think Michael did the right thing. Maybe not the PC thing, but he was cutting things off before they got dangerous. Often these issues can only be solved in the ring, as I can tell you mine never pulled his tricks like that at home. Maybe had I or someone else been tougher with my own horse in the ring, he would not have become a dangerous stopper. I think he was tough and sometimes that is neccesary. Unfortunately horses don't speak English and we can't just talk it out with them.
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I just reread my post. I am not saying that my horse started rearing right after the first time he stopped. His stopping over time eventually led to not just balking and stopping, but rearing. Also I agree with Dags, he hit 12 times, because there were 12 strides. My horse was one who would need that sometimes. He would need to not be given a second to think about it, because the second he had time that is when things got dangerous. If he didn't get a chance to think he often got right over it again and off we went.
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Originally posted by dags View PostDo you all stop smacking at 3 at home?
I'll fess up, there's been times.
Who, me??? I'll take the 5th.
But the standard is three and censure is in order.
I dunno, not defending overuse of the whip and I do hate to see this at upper level competitions-or any level competition...or even at home most of the time, horse was not really up to this type course, I guess that's obvious.
But...and I hope this does not sound like I condone abuse...the whip was properly used on the horse's backside, the rider left the door open so he could go forward in the one acceptable direction...and this was pretty much a disobediance on the part of the horse for losing the forward button and falling way into the inside of that turn despite attempts to keep it out and heading to the center of the jump.
Did he overdo it? Well, yeah, but I did not see any temper tantrum (and, Lord knows I have seen more then one in the GP ring) and I doubt the horse suffered any ill effects-and he got him over and fixed the problem.
Question is do we want this at this type of event. That would be NO. Leave them home until they are ready...but that's hindsight.
Abuse, no. Worthy of censure and possible fine, yeah.When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.
The horse world. Two people. Three opinions
.
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Michael Morrissey is a nice guy but as the rules are written he broke them.
I do not think that this constitutes real abuse, just a lack of judgement & tact that he will be punished for.Just as the major sports in this country have personal conduct policy policies for their players, this rule protects the reputation of the sport.
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Abuse? Rider in a snit? The dude is more abusive in private?
I don't see any of these inferences as solid. A rule's a rule so penalize the guy as you will.
I'll be this horse is typically sticky about water jumps, and has been "spoken to about that" before.
Why? Because once he has stopped, his mind starts to fry. That's what the looking out of the ring and spooking in during the circle is about. The horse seems to know he is in trouble.
The whipping is about making the horse believe he must go forward whether he wants to or not, is thinking about mentally checking out or not. In other words, the rider has two problems and that might be what so much whip is about. I can't tell if the guy is actually angry at his horse or just getting a job done.
It's not what I'd do in front of God and everybody. But it can be tough with a certain kind of horse. If he is always dicey with water jumps and has learned that the consequences of stopping are different in the show ring and at home, then the rider is in a real bind. At some point many people will sacrifice a show round to make a training point that's sorely needed.
The armchair saddler
Politically Pro-Cat
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Originally posted by rwh View PostQuestion about the three hit rule: Is it three hits in succession and you're out? Or three hits anywhere on course and you're out? Thanks!
Three in succession. You can smack them 100 times around the course as long as it's only three in a row. A steward can intervene if, in their judgement, it becomes abusive regardless of the number.When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.
The horse world. Two people. Three opinions
.
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That's a big ol' "if/then" statement and a huge leap (bigger than the water jump, as a matter of fact). You have to draw the line somewhere in a written rule so stewards on the ground can effectively police the law, and as LaurieP pointed out, it's a voting situation. Try to imagine being in that room and see if you really think that 3 was the magic number crossing into abuse. Now go ahead and explain how 2 harder hits is less abusive, or that 4 lighter taps is more abusive. It's like arguing that going 70mph on a highway is safe but increasing your speed by 3mph now makes it unsafe.Originally posted by Mardi View PostHmmmm
Let's follow this trail and see where it goes.
If the rule is three hits, then more hits would come under the umbrella of abuse (otherwise why limit the number of hits allowed).
While I appreciate Mroades point, on this we agree. There are probably MORE people saying that this is not abuse who have not ridden an FEI level water jump, so that one can cancel itself out.Now, how many of those same officials have ever ridden "an FEI level course course with an open water" ?
Probably not many.
But the officials are able to recognize it as abuse and take the action their job requires of them. So... having ridden the same kind of course has nothing to do with recognizing abuse.
I do have a problem with people talking about misdirecting the horse. Uh, no, it was a bending line, it's impossible to get a long straight run to it unless you get a bulldozer and clear the course first. Add to that, a horse that took advantage of the momentum of a bending line to create a run out (over a stop), and you end up with a horse not headed to the center of the jump.
And sometimes horses just "get it" that they are in a show ring and will pull stuff there that they simply wouldn't do it home. I have no clue about the horse or the situation, but I'm inclined to believe that if Steve still has his shop on the farm, there are plenty of opportunities to create a variety of water jumps. Maybe the critical mass was water jump+bending line+evening class? Unfortunately there are few opportunities to recreate that scenario at home or even a lower caliber class, so maybe the rider took it as a schooling opportunity and risked the penalty to see if the horse would take the opportunity to learn and maybe having jumped the water, realized it wasn't the bogeyman he thought it to be? I realize that this is most likely not the case, but since every person I ever met who actually trains horses (as opposed to sitting on them) has realized when a class is lost due to an issue in the ring with that horse, you might want to use it as a schooling opportunity.Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.
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One last thought. Ultimately the horses I see who are consistently successful at this sport love it. They want to jump clean as much as their riders. Maybe some horses, despite obvious talent are just not meant to be show horses. That said I have seen horses who have had an issue such as the water, who have overcome that either with the same or different riders, who have then gone on to great careers. For example, look at Fatalis Fatham and Daniel Blum. Federico Stzyrle and Chris Kappler both rode that horse and he didn't love the water. Both of them are GREAT riders, but that horse loves Daniel Blum and wants to win for him. Maybe it is rider change, but it could just as easily be good training from the beginning and maturation. Regardless some horses are easier than others, but obviously Michael's horse had already had some success or he wouldn't have been in that ring.
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Unacceptable! yes, a whack RIGHT AT the moment of refusal, ok. I'd understand the "correction.".... but starting the whacking AFTER circling and then continuously doing so?! Not.
<>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.
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I don't see a temper tantrum. That would have been spinning the horse in a circle and hitting him 13 times. MM backed up his leg at every stride while heading toward a jump. Horse got schooled. It wasn't pretty. He'll take his punishment according to the rules. Maybe there is something he would have done differently, maybe not.
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Here's my opinions.
It was unsportsmanlike and excessive. However, it was not abusive. The horse was clearly not brain-fried after the incident and he seems to canter away calmly. I know that if my horse was hit like that, he would be a nut-job. Perhaps this horse really did need quite a bit of "encouragement" to get over this jump. However, I would have given him 3 good whacks right before the base.Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
My equine soulmate
Mischief Managed (Tully)- JC Priceless Jewel 2002 TB Gelding
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Whoa, Nellie.Originally posted by findeight View PostThree in succession. You can smack them 100 times around the course as long as it's only three in a row.
I beg to differ with this statement.
That is not what is taught at USEF judges' clinics, nor what most judges will tolerate. 100 times in a course would be about 90-95 times too many for me.
Unless the steward happens to be standing right there, the judge is the one to make that determination in the show ring.
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I went back and looked at that again.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and who knows what might have been done at home or even could have been done at home or what was going on in that horse's pea brain.
But he was disobediant and balky from the first frame of this video, moving right into the riders blocking aids and ignoring the steering ones. Suspect there was not a whole lot of room between the preceeding fence and this open water. Not time to set up if there was a error and no room to fix anything.
Crop in the right hand to block the right drift, swat on the circle to get going-and another when that was ineffective then tap on the right each stride to the jump to stay straight.
I looked real hard and saw no temper at all, didn't even look like he was hitting him that hard after the first ones to get going. Like a jockey in a race tap tap tapping to keep one straight down the stretch after a few swats to get them going.
Lord, seen so much worse in the schooling rings and sometimes the GP ring from some names that might surprise you...and some that, sadly, would not surprise anybody.
That's not a defense of violating the 3 swat standard and, as I said before, it does need to be dealt with. But it's not abuse.When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.
The horse world. Two people. Three opinions
.
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I'll bite. I have to admit, I tend to think about future careers for these horses.Originally posted by shea'smom View PostTha Ridge, your comment makes it sound like you think marketability or the lack thereof is a consideration here? As if, the idea that there might be a loss of money involved somehow makes this more acceptable?
What do you do with a GP horse that doesn't jump the water?
Well, he isn't a GP horse any more.
You don't hand it over to a junior to deal with the same problem in the Highs.
Does this fear extend to liverpools? There go your Ch/AA - Low Jr options.
Now you're left with a buying group that can't even ride a horse of this athletic magnitude.
It costs a fortune to campaign these GP horses. It's a conscious decision and financial commitment to aim a horse at WEG. I doubt they made this effort with Mr. So So hanging out at the end of the barn. Wish all the fences were in this video, he looks to have a ton of talent and scope. Perhaps his only problem is that, sometimes unpredictably, he has a Timed Shut Down at the water. There are owners and checkbooks attached to this horse. Hate it if you must, but the behind the barn scenario everyone fears could simply be the executive decision that this is the horse's last chance to hack it in the Big Ring.
Horses having careers are key to their safe existence in the modern world. If I had the possibility of saving a horse's career by trying One More Thing, instead of hearing that buzzer and again accepting defeat, possibly final defeat, on that long journey out of the ring, I'd do it. it wouldn't look so hard 'cause I'm a little girl, but it would be 12 rhythmic smacks behind the leg on every stride while SIMULTANEOUSLY slamming shut every possible door to evasion. Which he did - again, it was very will ridden all smacking aside. And I would accept the punishment, it would have been a very conscious evaluation and decision, and I'd cross my fingers and hope those 12 smacks overcame his fear of a freaking water jump. Abuse you say? Where this horse ends up when he's Flat Out Unsellable, and has tossed half the novice population that wants him as a trail pony, and has gone from a gloriously fit sport horse to a backyard special with ignorantly deemed reputation as a fire breathing dragon, that will be abuse.
Other points . . . the track again - I could see the exact take off point he was heading for, it was RIGHT THERE, horse would have taken off from center, and he just totally dropped his right shoulder and quit. Gawd it's amazing how fast they can drop behind your leg, and at that level very real problems can occur when all impulsion disappears out from under you.
..I don't think you can say that because the Lords of USEF deemed 3 smacks acceptable for the show ring they simultaneously deem 4 smacks as abuse...
... and I do not think you can rebuild all show ring situations at home. I know you can't, my AppenQH taught me that at 12. I could jump a freshly laid casket spewing memorial wreaths and flowers at home, but flowers in the show ring? Death. Immediate death.
Okay done now.
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Well, a shame it had to come to that, but if it is a long-term issue, he did succeed in making the right side unattractive to the horse in about the only way he could in the moment. Be interesting to see what the investigation reveals."One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine
Spay and neuter. Please.
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It looked like the rider was not having a temper tantrum. Not knowing anything about the horse, I'd assume maybe he has an issue with water, and the smack to me was about GO THE HELL FORWARD AND JUMP THE WATER.
About the crop. You know, some horses you can use leg and spur and what they need is a swift smack every time they choose to ignore your leg. Sometimes it gets ugly. It looks like he was schooling the horse to move forward off the leg.
Is it appropriate for the show ring? No, it's in violation of the rules. But if I owned a high dollar GP horse who stopped at water, I'd appreciate the effort to get the problem fixed.
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End of story, it was training and not abuse. And from someone who has experienced this exact same problem it was very well ridden. Some problems can only get solved in the ring. Was it a violition of the rules, yes but I am sure Michael would do it all again to make his point to his horse. Say what you want, but DAGS is 100% on it. His life as a show horse will be better than any other he might get. I was lucky to place my horse, but it took a huge amount of time, energy and mostly dumb LUCK! Let this poor guy go he made the right training call at the time for his horse. Sometimes the right thing to do is the hardest.
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