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Thoughts on Morrissey Controversy?

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  • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
    No where does that quote say he is using the handle.
    I am not trying to be controversial here, simply stating my thoughts as asked by the OP...... however, when I read "turned the whip around" I assumed that would mean held the other end..... what eles would it mean?

    Originally posted by RugBug View Post
    If you're not seeing the popper in the video, you've made up your mind on what to see and are making the video fit that.
    I have? Im glad you are able to read minds through the internet...

    It is a unclear video - - at least on my computer. I should not have to justify with you that fact. I stated I could not see it clearly enough to make a call... don't make it more than it is....
    Live in the sunshine.
    Swim in the sea.
    Drink the wild air.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NorthFaceFarm View Post
      Wow, I can't believe people are actually taking the time to research the horse's background. He didn't want to go over the water, MM did what he thought was necessary to get his point across, he broke an FEI rule and to the UNTRAINED eye, looked like a jerk. 10 pages? really?

      I think it is an interesting thread. So yes, I researched the horse because that's how I roll. The OP asked opinions and I wanted to participate with some facts.

      If you are not interested in participating for 10 pages worth, no one is forcing you to.
      Live in the sunshine.
      Swim in the sea.
      Drink the wild air.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
        I am not trying to be controversial here, simply stating my thoughts as asked by the OP...... however, when I read "turned the whip around" I assumed that would mean held the other end..... what eles would it mean?
        I mean this in a nice way, go to a george morris clinic. He went over how to correctly hold the crop and in the various positions in which you can. Turning the whip over does not mean holding it in the wrong place it means turning it from popper down (across the thigh) to popper up (forward towards the ears).

        This allows for the rider to get a swift, faster, more effective correction to the haunch and not the flank.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by colleen9 View Post
          I mean this in a nice way, go to a george morris clinic. He went over how to correctly hold the crop and in the various positions in which you can. Turning the whip over does not mean holding it in the wrong place it means turning it from popper down (across the thigh) to popper up (forward towards the ears).

          This allows for the rider to get a swift, faster, more effective correction to the haunch and not the flank.


          AHHHH yes... get it....get it! When reading an article - - or reading anything in general - - comments can be misunderstood etc......

          Thanks!!!

          I would love to go to a GM clinic.
          Live in the sunshine.
          Swim in the sea.
          Drink the wild air.

          Comment


          • I haven't watched the video a third time. But I'll bet--seeing or not-- the dude did turn it over in his hand--shaft protruding near his thumb, not pinky. I'll bet he didn't flip it over to use handle on horse. Why? Because the second move takes a much larger adjustment, maybe two hands.

            I also think the grand eye-catching gesture of even raising my whip that high has an effect on the horse. The warm up may have been as important as the pitch and not about hitting the horse harder. A loud, though not painful, works nicely, too. Ask a barrel racer about the function of her bat.

            There are horses that know the difference between show and home. They have you non-sinners over a barrel in terms of training. Maybe this horse is one of those clever beasts.

            Dealing with the "Water Stopper" can get to a high-stakes training game. Once they learn to stop just at that kind of obstacle, it seems to me that you might have to get rough to with them.

            Furthermore, once you commit to that fight, you had better do it well (staying on this side of that razor's edge between taking the horse in hand and frying his brain).

            And beyond that, you must win otherwise you taught him that water is the place he will be beaten to death anyway, so he might as well prepare for the worst and "start stopping" well back from the fence.

            So glad I'm not in the position where some steward will disqualify me retroactively because of some YouTube pressure. What a strange way to enforce rules.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CoolMeadows View Post
              A greenbroke, small, plain bay interesting moving pony is a far cry from a successful international horse. Cute little guy, but not exactly in the same range as a winning international horse with a good record.

              OY! I KNOW PERSONALLY OF A GP HORSE THAT WENT TO THE KILLERS OVER HIS STOP! My point with the pony was that NICE PONIES go to the killers. What prevents a stopper from the same fate? Are you being obtuse?

              Comment


              • I had to wait until I came home from work to see the video. I don't post much. It was ugly to look at. Bottom line. And this sport is not about ugly.
                In the heart of Horse Country ....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                  So glad I'm not in the position where some steward will disqualify me retroactively because of some YouTube pressure. What a strange way to enforce rules.

                  Now here's the real issue. Any disqualification should have taken place then and there....

                  I bet anyone would be mad if they were disqualified...etc. "after the fact."

                  I know I was. Once in a show.. I won a high point etc... a WEEK later I was contacted because I didn't enter the qualified amount of classes that was not posted clearly on the show premium.... I returned the awards (somewhat substantial cost of awards) and went on with my life... I know it's not exactly the same... but it is the after the fact what gets you....

                  Is this kind of like a police issue where they are dealing with a criminal and are video taped???

                  Is our world becomming a video world? I recently got a ticket from a camera!

                  IMHO - - - I still think he could have dealt with this differently...
                  Live in the sunshine.
                  Swim in the sea.
                  Drink the wild air.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by dags View Post
                    Because those of us that agree with you continually, and repeatedly, have to remind these folk



                    ... That there was NO mistake on the approach - that "blind" line you seem to see? That WAS THE TEST.
                    Then we have to point out that the sticking was not in reprimand for the refusal, but for the disobedience of ignoring the leg aid to go forward.
                    Then we have to point out that while, yes, he is physically moving one leg in front of the other and covering ground at the same time, he is NOT actually going FORWARD, as defined by the needs of a 15' water jump.
                    Then we have to remind them this is not a refusal to jump, but a refusal to jump water (ps - for those that did read his record - it does not show which classes did and did not have water jumps. A GP comes in many shapes and sizes these days)

                    And then all that gets buried two pages back and the same accusations come up again.

                    We are at fault for trying to educate the uneducated
                    Will you marry me?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gry2Yng View Post
                      OY! I KNOW PERSONALLY OF A GP HORSE THAT WENT TO THE KILLERS OVER HIS STOP! My point with the pony was that NICE PONIES go to the killers. What prevents a stopper from the same fate? Are you being obtuse?
                      Funny the proposal G2Y, since I was just rolling over your response here. I had been waiting for it since that oh-so helpful (and obtuse) comment was posted. It just might work
                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dags View Post
                        Funny the proposal G2Y, since I was just rolling over your response here. I had been waiting for it since that oh-so helpful (and obtuse) comment was posted. It just might work
                        OMG. You get me and I get you. And we both ride horses. Seems like a match made in horsey heaven! Sadly, I have an SO, a decidedly allergic to hay SO.

                        ETA: He does buy me/support my decisions to buy really nice horses, so he isn't all bad. And he has only said "Why do you keep having that rail?" Once!

                        Comment


                        • Dare I mention we live within the same state? Same quarter of the state? hahaha. I have SO allergies too, he's deathly allergic to "moving out of the city"
                          EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gry2Yng View Post
                            ETA: He does buy me/support my decisions to buy really nice horses, so he isn't all bad. And he has only said "Why do you keep having a rail?" Once!
                            Then there's that pesky gender thing too when you find a duplicate of that male, send him my way. I can deal with a pesky hay allergy
                            EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gry2Yng View Post
                              OY! I KNOW PERSONALLY OF A GP HORSE THAT WENT TO THE KILLERS OVER HIS STOP! My point with the pony was that NICE PONIES go to the killers. What prevents a stopper from the same fate? Are you being obtuse?
                              No, but are you being a [edit]? Why, yes, yes you are.

                              I know nice ponies go to the killers, and have pulled more than my fair share of horses out of kill pens. Did you snap up that GP horse? I had no idea there were so many GP riders and trainers here. Anyway, again: he broke the rule. I never said anything about his initial approach because there was nothing wrong with it.

                              What would prevent a stopper from going to kill?? Let me see: if it jumps international level courses and WINS. And it ONLY has an issue with open waters, sometimes. I'd say if one like that goes to the killers, I'll be first in line to snag it. But hey, you say ones exactly like that are in the kill pens so let's all go get some open horses. Please.

                              Now back to your regularly scheduled self indulgent back patting and snarlfest.
                              Last edited by admin; Apr. 15, 2010, 09:20 PM. Reason: to remove foul language
                              Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dags View Post
                                Funny the proposal G2Y, since I was just rolling over your response here. I had been waiting for it since that oh-so helpful (and obtuse) comment was posted. It just might work
                                Your user name is incredibly appropriate.
                                Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by CoolMeadows View Post
                                  Did you snap up that GP horse? I had no idea there were so many GP riders and trainers here.
                                  No, my neighbor got him first.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by CoolMeadows View Post
                                    No, but are you being a [edit]? Why, yes, yes you are.

                                    Anyway, again: he broke the rule. I never said anything about his initial approach because there was nothing wrong with it.

                                    Now back to your regularly scheduled self indulgent back patting and snarlfest.
                                    OK-- dags and G2Y-- get a room. We're here for the [edit]. Your private kumbayah (sp?) is stinkin' up the place, ruining the mojo.

                                    And my own restorative post:

                                    Here's the problem with the "Rule's a rule" thing.

                                    A) Just about everyone within the showing world knows the USEF and others has a history of enforcing rules unevenly. Some would say selectively. That in itself opens a credibility gap.

                                    B) When officials who were there and, let's say for the sake of the argument made an informed and law-biding decision, later change that up for PR purposes, it enlarges the credibility gap.

                                    If you have the public at large, many of whom think fly masks are blind folds, leaping over the bounds of the sport's more knowledgeable and concerned membership to tell the governing body how to rule, I think the organization will have a hard time.

                                    I can't believe I'm going to write something so elitist, but I think the USEF needs to circle it's wagons and defend the Ground Jury's right to make the decision it saw fit. Even further, they ought to insist that the group answer only to itself and the rules.

                                    If the USEF learns anything at all, however, it is that they must police themselves well or someone else will do that for them.
                                    Last edited by admin; Apr. 15, 2010, 09:21 PM. Reason: to remove foul language
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • mvp, you are correct, in your entire post. My appologses for stinking up the place. Crap, too much wine. How do you spell apologies?

                                      You are also correct, the GP (general public as opposed to Grand Prix) should not dictate horsemanship or sanctions.

                                      Finally, I was going to edit my previous post to add the following for Cool Meadows benefit...


                                      Yes, I am a [edit]. I have a mouth like a truck driver. hardly relevant to the topic. I have ridden and purchased my fair share of nasty bastards on their way down as well as kind but misunderstood ponies. I have ridden in some high profile environments and I have jumped some big [edit] scary fences, but not the biggest or the baddest by any means. That being said, I know that I am not the best at everything horse and I don't know everything horse, but I have spent my life with them and with a family that spent their life with them and I *do* know that if you want to stay safe and keep the animal employed, then they need to do as requested. Do I roll my eyes at the "I only have to hit him once, so why should you have to hit him more than once crowd"? Yes, I do.
                                      Last edited by admin; Apr. 15, 2010, 09:22 PM. Reason: to remove foul language

                                      Comment


                                      • this is the way i look at it. It is very well known that the horse is a constant dirty stopper at the water. I'm no GP rider but i have ridden my fair share of very dirty stoppers and greenies and i always learned to ride defensively to the jumps that were known to set them off. Every ride whether it be in the show ring or at home was a training session to help enforce that they are to go over that specific jump whether it be water, a certain color flowers, a certain type of jump...etc....they WERE GOING OVER IT.

                                        After rewatching morrissey's ride, he didn't ride to the base of the jump defensively and he rode it like any other jump on the course. If i knew the horse was a dirty stopper at the water and i was the rider, i would've been taking the straightest line possible to that one fence to set the horse up to it and let it be seen, no surprises or "off" approaches. I would've gotten 3 strides out and firmly gave the horse 3 good wacks with the crop on those last three strides.

                                        If the horse was that well known as a dirty stopper at the water, i'd be riding to the water in this defensive manner, at every event/class. I'd get 3 strides out and give the horse no opportunity but to go forward and i'd be enforcing that in front of the fence and on the way to it; not just trying to race towards it and ride to it like any other fence on course.

                                        yes it was an important GP but obviously this horse is green and has his fair share of issues and instead of just racing towars the jump, not setting him up correctly, and not enforcing GO OVER IT from the first attempt....even if it was a qualifying GP, it's still a training session for that horse and he obviously struggles with that one fenc eon course so why not take the extra second and thoroughly think the approach through and enforce going over it from the first appraoch instead of beating the tar out of the poor animal afterwards....

                                        I also always learned that if you're going to use the whip, make it short and sweet and to the point, don't use it if the horse refuses unless your using it IN FRONT OF THE JUMP to utilize GOING OVER THE JUMP. In this video Morrissey started beating the horse after he had already done a 1/2 circle and was just starting to turn back for stride #1 of the 12 strides towards the jump of the beating. At this point the horse is getting beat going away from the jump....12 strides away...and then continuously beat the entire way to the jump. my trainers would cringe if i ever did that and then proceed to beat me for doing such a thing. the entire situation contradicts everything i ever learned about using a bat at fences.


                                        I just see a lot of errors in this entire water jump situation

                                        Comment


                                        • mvp I agree that the general public shouldn't be able to bulldoze governing bodies into making judgements, but the problem is the rule is already written as three strikes relating to one incident. It'd be hard breaking down a whack per stride into separate incidents... even if the horse was still sucking back behind the leg till the last 2 steps, it all related to one jump/one incident. So, I'm back to rules is rules. If the rule wasn't already written and pretty clear, it'd be another story.
                                          Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

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