• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Spinoff: 2-3yo WBs under saddle and longevity? Jumping at 3?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Spinoff: 2-3yo WBs under saddle and longevity? Jumping at 3?

    I just recently read a comment from somebody about their 3yo being so quiet and calm, and noted that they put him under saddle for a few months ("lightly") as a 2yo before it was turned out for the winter. He's just started back up. This is different to me, as I always backed my WBs at 3.

    Curious if anybody has experience doing this, and if there is evidence of long-term damage from riding a 2yo lightly for a couple months before the winter? Would appreciate feedback from folks with experience...

    Also, what about small jumping at 3 after the knees have closed? Is this the difference between an AO type horse (started later) and a primo showhorse? Not sure how common this is nowadays.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Halfhalting View Post

    Also, what about small jumping at 3 after the knees have closed? Is this the difference between an AO type horse (started later) and a primo showhorse? Not sure how common this is nowadays.
    I am no expert, but I don't think that this is what the difference is between the AO type horses and the Primo show horse, nor is it between the Children's Jumper and the Grand Prix horse. However, that being said, I do think that there is a prime (for most horses) at which they need to be jumping a certain height or else they'll max out so to speak. Obviously, the difference of starting a horse at 2,3,4 won't make a difference, but what gets me is when you have 9,10,11,12 year old horses being campaigned as Grand Prix Prospects. JMO
    Ryu Equestrian & Facebook Page
    Breeding Horses Today, for the Equestrian Sport of Tomorrow.
    Osteen & Gainesville, Florida.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not sure what you mean by "AO type", since to me that means an a/o hunter, which needs to be a top-class show horse. But, if what you mean is a user-friendly animal of average ability, then I think you're on the wrong track. In my experience, the later they're started, the more difficult they are. We generally start ours at two, but have started some at three, and the later ones always take longer to develop a work ethic and tend to question authority. The few horses I've been around that were started at four or later have been very, very tough. Plus, if the are that late in their training you are well into their prime competition years before you have a trained show horse. It really limits their saleability and the reach of their career.

      Comment


      • #4
        Can I just interupt for a second and say MCarverS that you have such drool worthy horses. I love to look at your farm page!
        The ultimate horse mom

        http://www.youtube.com/user/LeeB110

        Comment


        • #5
          What a compliment! Thank you Lee! I'm grateful to my parents, without whom none of it would have been possible- now I sound like I just won a Grammy :-)
          Ryu Equestrian & Facebook Page
          Breeding Horses Today, for the Equestrian Sport of Tomorrow.
          Osteen & Gainesville, Florida.

          Comment


          • #6
            We had a lady come try one of our horses one time, and all she did was piss and moan about "this is why I start the babies at 2!". The woman was really awful, and I was a little upset with the way she rode the sale horse, so I googled her. Not only did she start the 2 year olds (most ended up being around 18 months, if you went by their birth date), but she had them going w/t/c on the bit and talking about going to shows. That's not the kind of thing I would do.

            But, I do think exercise is good for babies. It encourages strong bones, tendons, and ligaments, and keeps the sillies from getting the best of them. However, you don't need to pound a baby into the ground to accomplish something. Ours get messed with a lot, so the whole breaking and training process is never really all that exciting. We teach them to lunge and free jump when they're two, lightly back them at three, and start them seriously under saddle at four.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
              I'm not sure what you mean by "AO type", since to me that means an a/o hunter, which needs to be a top-class show horse. But, if what you mean is a user-friendly animal of average ability, then I think you're on the wrong track. In my experience, the later they're started, the more difficult they are. We generally start ours at two, but have started some at three, and the later ones always take longer to develop a work ethic and tend to question authority. The few horses I've been around that were started at four or later have been very, very tough. Plus, if the are that late in their training you are well into their prime competition years before you have a trained show horse. It really limits their saleability and the reach of their career.
              I agree with this.

              On my personal horses I often do light 15 minute rides a couple times a week at 2.5 to get the idea across (w-t-c-halt-give to bit), then winter off. Consistent riding at 3 (trail rides, 20-30 minute flat rides, poles on the ground, a crossrail here and there but nothing I would term "jumping"). By end of 3 I want good manners on the flat, a forward, relaxed horse, some basic lateral work and a confirmed change.

              Introduce jumping around May of 4 year old year, some shows starting in July. I mostly have jumpers, and at 5 want them happily going around the 3'6 at shows.

              Comment


              • #8
                I do NOT start my horses late, they are well under saddle as three year olds. But I also do NOT start jumping much more than little x's, some small verticals/oxers (2') until they are well into the four year old year. I don't really like to be doing 3'+ as early five year olds. I feel it is just toomuch to expect mentally and physically from these horses. Everyone has an opinion, this is mine!
                www.shawneeacres.net

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have started my WBs all at 2 (very late though) just enough to get 60-90 days in and then turn them out for a few months and then put them in regular work at 3. I don't pound them, just instill a solid work ethic and "program." My current baby will be 4 in April. We just started jumping her this winter, very lightly due to the weather. But she was ready mentally and physically.

                  I have not had soundness issues with any of these horses. One in fact is turning 16 this year and is still showing at the AA level.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My Plan .....

                    Hey Chandra : What do you think of this plan :

                    THIS is all great to know. My gelding will be "2" March 3rd. So trying to decide WHEN to back him.? Was really looking at doing a Oct/ Nov time-frame with a very good guy to put about 60-days on him. THEN,, turn out until his 3yr old year. And that spring have some good flat work put on him. No jumping until the END of the 3yr old year before being turned out again.. AND once 4yrs old. Move forward with the Flatwork & Jumping begins..

                    What are your thougths on that plan of attack.
                    PS. I do plan to take him to Hunter Breeder shows this season just for experience and to get off the farm and learn what life will be like . I would like other opinions on this as well.
                    "YOU create your own stage. The audience is waiting."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      well im finding having a wb now that it is taking longer to have them ready mentally and phisically,then my qh x i had.my gelding is 2.5 coming 3 in may i have done a few backings here and there ,but right now its just longing and long lining to atleast keep up muscle tone and such,but keeping it minimal as his legs and back haven;t fully matured.when i had my qh she matured quicker and had her showing locally by 4 yrs old and showing well..lil bit of a brag.by 1-1.5 they are used to saddle and bridle.so by the time ithey are ready to be backed they are used to them.
                      2 -2.5 lunging,lining, voice,ground manners,establish more of a rountine.
                      3yr-light backing,leg aids, ground pole,refineing flat work

                      4 yr and up is raised jumps and small course work and good flat work.

                      i know this is bit layed out weird ,but hopefully you get the idea.
                      http://myridingjourney.blogspot.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                        I'm not sure what you mean by "AO type", since to me that means an a/o hunter, which needs to be a top-class show horse. But, if what you mean is a user-friendly animal of average ability, then I think you're on the wrong track. In my experience, the later they're started, the more difficult they are. We generally start ours at two, but have started some at three, and the later ones always take longer to develop a work ethic and tend to question authority. The few horses I've been around that were started at four or later have been very, very tough. Plus, if the are that late in their training you are well into their prime competition years before you have a trained show horse. It really limits their saleability and the reach of their career.
                        ^ This has been my experience as well.

                        We do keep a close eye on the youngsters and each is treated as an individual, but I prefer those that learn young that they are blue collar horses who have to work for a living! We do of course make sure knees are closed, etc, before moving on to more physically taxing work, but generally speaking, they are all in a program of some sort as three year olds, and they will have had a fair amount of handling before then.
                        **********
                        We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                        -PaulaEdwina

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Thanks for all the replies! My wording may have been confusing ("wrong track") but essentially I was wondering if those who show a lot tend to back their youngsters earlier, compared to those who don't do hunter breeding or futurity type shows who wait to back until 3. I come from "old school" warmblood breeding where youngsters were prepped at 2 (lunge/surcingle/saddled/long lined) but not backed until 3, but I'm not against backing earlier depending on the maturity of the horse... hence my inquiry. I just seem to see more "backed at 2" in the hunters than say, dressage. But maybe I'm just seeing it more because I'm looking at all the sale horses! lol!

                          CBoylen - I agree that starting later than 3 or 4 isn't always beneficial, especially if the horse is already the opinionated type!

                          Those of you who introduce jumping at 3, do you x-ray knees first?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Halfhalting View Post
                            Thanks for all the replies! My wording may have been confusing ("wrong track") but essentially I was wondering if those who show a lot tend to back their youngsters earlier, compared to those who don't do hunter breeding or futurity type shows who wait to back until 3. I come from "old school" warmblood breeding where youngsters were prepped at 2 (lunge/surcingle/saddled/long lined) but not backed until 3, but I'm not against backing earlier depending on the maturity of the horse... hence my inquiry. I just seem to see more "backed at 2" in the hunters than say, dressage. But maybe I'm just seeing it more because I'm looking at all the sale horses! lol!

                            CBoylen - I agree that starting later than 3 or 4 isn't always beneficial, especially if the horse is already the opinionated type!

                            Those of you who introduce jumping at 3, do you x-ray knees first?
                            I mentioned that I do hop over a crossrail on occasion, so in case you include that -- no. I pretty much assume knees on a WB are not closed at 3. But keep in mind, when I say that a hop over a crossrail here and there, I mean it -- maybe half a dozen the whole year. I want them to understand that going over things is going to be part of the program as well, but that's it. We may also hop over a fallen log on the trail, etc. if there's one in the path. No big deal and certainly not going to overstress knees or cause later unsoundness in my opinion.

                            We do have our very good vet examine them before we back them. If their knees are very gappy we will hold off.

                            Another issue for young horses -- longeing. I longe long enough to teach a horse the meaning of the word "whoa" and get used to a saddle on its back, but then I stop. After they are backed I expect to be able to get right on them without longeing. I think that this preserves the babes more than anything -- I firmly believe that going around repeatedly in tight circles wears horses out prematurely.

                            I also like to train them to a mounting block. Getting on from the ground is a skill everyone should have but not use all the time. It puts too much stress on their backs.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It seems as if the best gauge is the breed but also the individual for what happens late in the 3rd year and into the 4th year. Any pounding of a young horse or a lot of jumping when they are going through their awkward growing periods doesn't seem to be a good idea, but I don't see legions of horses breaking down because they did the young jumpers or the pre-greens as 4 year olds! I had a 4 year old who was doing the 2nd years as a 5-6 year old, and did the regulars with his next owner the next year. He was solid as a rock.

                              Everyone knows TBs on the track are started very, very early. Those who come out of that career sound are often still going into their 20s. It is not ideal by any means to start a baby as a long yearling and race at 2, but that is what happens here in the US and obviously it can be managed. TBs aren't necessarily any more or less tough than WBs and x-breeds, so what does that tell you?

                              My TB grew until he was 6, too, so going by that the poor guy should not have been started so early and raced so much before he was done growing. However, it happened and I'm committed to managing him so he stays sound- happily, his legs are like iron.
                              You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Oct/ Nov time-frame with a very good guy to put about 60-days on him. THEN,, turn out until his 3yr old year. And that spring have some good flat work put on him. No jumping until the END of the 3yr old year before being turned out again.. AND once 4yrs old. Move forward with the Flatwork & Jumping begins..
                                That's my general plan too, although I don't freejump so I tend to hop a crossrail as soon as they steer to get an idea of what I've got. I also find it easier to put the flatwork on a three year old while including small obstacles into the ride, it improves focus and self-balance.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  We broke my filly at 3 and she gets 15 min of flat work 5-6 days a week. She will be 4 on April 1st and she can hop around a 2' course (although she hasn't jumped a course since the fall). She seems to like being in a little program and loves to jump. Most of the horses at the barn were started as 2 year olds.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Mine just went into training the first of this month. Technically, he'll be 3 in July. He was a big goof ball and had the attention span of a gnat at 2. He was turned out with the broodmares so was getting an education, of sorts, on manners and pecking order.

                                    I have a very good trainer. If all goes according to plan, I expect him to be jumping small courses by the end of summer. That's good enough...

                                    We did start all our QHs at 2, and they were showing full steam at 3. But they just had more mental maturity at 2 than my WBs. I can't explain it...they just did.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      When I worked at a barn in Holstein we started the three year olds in winter December/January. They were ridden for a couple months. Mares did the mares test and where turned out after that. Geldings nearly the same except for the mares test of course ;-) ! we rode them shortly every day, they were on the bit jumped couple fences in a tiny course and did walk, trot, canter. they were in the field by end of may and stayed there till the weather order us to get them in. We re-started them again in december/january they were trained to be able to do a young horse competion for 4-year olds. each went to two maybe three shows. They were turned out over summer because as a professional you have hope fully more older horses to ride than just 4-year olds ;-) When simply just haven't had the time to ride ten 4 year olds an the older ones the full summer and show them. My boss always said: "What do you want to do with a 4-year old jumper?! When they jumped around a course at a show with out to much trouble, there is not a lot else you could do!"
                                      He's right there are no important competions for 4-year olds here in Germany.
                                      I have seen to many horse that did tons of show as three and your year olds and at ten and older they are done.
                                      It depends on the horse some are two and look ready some are four and you think they will never look like a horse! Light Work and breaks seem the best way to start a 3 year old. Let them jump if you have the feeling they are okay to do it(balanced, and mostly ready in the head)

                                      Just my two cents...okay maybe more

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Good Points there .
                                        "YOU create your own stage. The audience is waiting."

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X