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Suggestions on "hunterizing"

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  • #1

    Suggestions on "hunterizing"

    I have a lovely guy who I need some suggestions with. Our primary concern at this point is that he is a peanut roller. He gets very low with his head carriage.

    I have tried him in several different bridles/bits, from a bitless bridle (which he likes), plain loosering, slowtwist loosering, french link, waterford, happymouth french link, mechanical hackamore, rubber pelham, 3 ring, gag and american gag.

    He is otherwise an easy going, bombproof lovely lovely animal. He gets strong and pulls down after jumping (doesnt really get quick, but pulls doooown) and just trotting and cantering around he is quite low (but not heavy in the bridle).

    I typically ride him in a plain D ring or bitless bridle, if I plan to do a jump school or a "good schooling ride" I will put in the pelham.

    He has been out to a bunch of shows in the past where he just competed in the hack classes (B circuit), again was low, but the scenery lifted him up just enough. He has also gotten out to the $5 ring to school around the jumps, which he loves...but gets quite strong.

    I know the #1 thing you will all say is "LEG", I do...I try to balance equal pressure leg to hand, if not more leg...but it hasnt really seemed to do much in our situation. Teeth are fine, and he is sound, saddle fits well- this has been a problem since I bought him 5 years ago. Never had chiro done, but massage has been done and he believed the horse was feelin' great.

    Old trainer told me that he should do western - so I bought him a western saddle and am teaching my dad to ride on him Horse also loves to trail ride so it certainly was worth the $. I'd just love to know if there is any other suggestions before he completely converts to the western side!!!

    Trot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw1FSv2_ig8
    Small jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOXYcJNkf8

    *edited to add one more video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UavImdy3LP4 - this one shows him leaning down more after the fences

    Any suggestions would be really appreciated!!!
    Last edited by SquishTheBunny; Feb. 6, 2010, 09:35 PM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    I quite like the way he carries himself on the flat... A bit low, but he's certainly not a peanut-roller and seems to self-carry for the most part.

    As for fences, he mostly just seems excited and quick, more so than heavy. The "pulling down" seems to have more to do with the way he carries himself on the flat.

    What about a D-ring segunda? It would give you enough "oomph" to bump his head up a bit on the flat, as well giving you a bit more leverage over fences too.

    He's super cute! I wouldn't mind riding him.

    Comment

    • #3
      Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
      I quite like the way he carries himself on the flat... A bit low, but he's certainly not a peanut-roller and seems to self-carry for the most part.

      As for fences, he mostly just seems excited and quick, more so than heavy. The "pulling down" seems to have more to do with the way he carries himself on the flat.

      What about a D-ring segunda? It would give you enough "oomph" to bump his head up a bit on the flat, as well giving you a bit more leverage over fences too.
      agreed 100%
      (|--Sarah--|)

      Blitz <3 & Leap of Faith <3

      Comment

      • #4
        I would try a tiny Hunter port on him. Nothing sharp or high - just a little bend in the mouthpiece to give you a little help lifting those withers up.

        I'd do a bunch of work on transitions, always asking him to sit down behind and lift up at the wither. I'd also do a fair amount of lateral work.

        When jumping at home, I'd always school slightly short distances, and I'd use a ton of ground poles to get him studying a bit more, to encourage him to take his time, rock back, and round softly over the jumps, landing in balance.

        That said, however, I think he's lovely. You are welcome to send him to me
        **********
        We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
        -PaulaEdwina

        Comment

        • #5
          This is an interesting thread as our horse carries himself this way to a certain extent. Maybe a little less than the horse in the video, but certainly similar. I am looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

          Comment

          • #6
            I had a horse who went very similar to yours, only he was also behind my leg. He was built downhill and trained to go with a very low head set. I used to ride him in a mullen mouth and much shorter reins with my hands in front of me, slightly raised, while sitting waayyy back to get him off his forehand and learn to carry himself with his head up. I took many lessons with a dressage trainer-she made me do lots of sit trots, spiral circles and transistons where I would sit waaayyyy back for the next gait to get him using his hind end, lots of lateral work, counter-cantering and working over groundpoles-before he finally understood what I wanted. He truly searched for a long, low release, so any pressure on his mouth was met with a,"Oh, put my head way down!" response. At that point, training o/f came very easily.

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            • #7
              I used to show quarter horses at breed shows and AA shows, going back and forth. It is definitely fixable.

              Try keeping your reins shorter and letting him stretch his nose forward as well -- don't focus on roundness until you have him up in front. Do a lot of walk-canter transitions to get him on his haunches. Do lateral work. Half halt. Lots of transitions of all types to keep him on his haunches. And have fun -- he is lovely and looks like a good soul.

              Comment

              • #8
                Ditto- work on sitting back and rocking him back off his forehand. Exercises like 5 strides of forward canter, 5 strides collected canter, 5 strides hand gallop, 5 strides working canter, rinse repeat. It will help keep him in front of your leg and teach him that a half halt is for rebalancing on the haunches- not slowing down.

                Comment

                • #9
                  What everyone else said. . . plus think 'bump him up'. . . leg on, lean back, lift hands up until poll is higher than wither and nose is out in front (think saddlebred hands), then let go. . . this is all in 1, 2 or 3 strides at most.

                  Right now when jumping, you are just following him down if you are in your two point with a round back. He leans on you, you brace your hands into his neck, and you have a pulling match. Use some landing rails after the jump to slow him down on his own, or a rail 30 ft (two strides after rail to jump) out in front to help him measure without getting fast or you having to hold on his face.

                  On the flat a million transitions with his head UP, your back straight and NOT in two point!!
                  Dina
                  www.olddominionsaddlery.com
                  http://www.facebook.com/olddominionsaddlery Like us on Facebook!!

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                  • #10
                    I really like your horse and he is only slightly too low on the flat. I agree that you need to shorten your reins a little.

                    I'm unconventional, but it works, so here it goes. What I do to correct a horse of this habit is to keep riding the horse into outside rein and gently lift the horse up with my inside rein while applying an inside leg. Literally, take your hand and lift it up with it in a very gentle, balanced, smooth motion until he lifts his head up. Don't jerk. Also, horses that are trained like this will have a tendency to go further down and more behind the bit if you don't walk that rein up short enough while doing this movement. Only make his head come up to the point that you want it, which for this horse, is only very slightly above where he is now. Always maintain the contact while doing this too. Don't do it on a loose rein especially if you don't have very steady hands (don't jerk upward, just lift). If your horse is as well schooled as he looks, he should respond to this easily and will come out of it. You may have to do it a million times before he gets it, but it will come. If he puts his head right back down after the lift, do it again until you're satisfied with the session and then come back another day.

                    Ditto what others said as well about the transitions as well.

                    You have a really nice horse You're "problem" is a good one to have. It makes him jump with better form than 99.9% of horses out there even over tiny fences. That's how its done over the actual jump. You don't want to mess with that kind of jumping form because its perfect.

                    If you can get his head just a little higher and more in front of the vertical before your bounce line and after your bounce line, you have a winning 2'6" horse on the A circuit Good luck, and don't convert him to western. Too big and nice of a stride.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by toomanyponies View Post
                      What everyone else said. . . plus think 'bump him up'. . . leg on, lean back, lift hands up until poll is higher than wither and nose is out in front (think saddlebred hands), then let go. . . this is all in 1, 2 or 3 strides at most.

                      Right now when jumping, you are just following him down if you are in your two point with a round back. He leans on you, you brace your hands into his neck, and you have a pulling match. Use some landing rails after the jump to slow him down on his own, or a rail 30 ft (two strides after rail to jump) out in front to help him measure without getting fast or you having to hold on his face.

                      On the flat a million transitions with his head UP, your back straight and NOT in two point!!
                      We were thinking the same thing

                      This...preferably one stride, then do it again. I would also sit the canter and sit up straight too. Sitting and collection makes it easier for you to lift the hand up.

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                      • Original Poster
                        #12
                        Thanks for all your suggestions everyone! I added one more video to the first post to give you a better idea on the "downhill" after the jump.

                        And thanks for all the compliments on him, he really is wonderful. Bombproof as they come and an absolute pet - he's a keeper thats for sure.


                        I have a segunda I used on him once, I will give it another try! I hate using strong bits on him as he has a very soft mouth, but Im just so worried about him doing a sommersault after a jump!!!

                        My last ride I did a ton of trot/canter canter/trot transitions, to the point where he just picked up the rhythm and did it on his own....although he was still low, he did feel like he had more self carriage.

                        When I first got him he had a very locked mouth, stuck his head straight out - now Im praying for that...he is too round most of the time, even with a bitless bridle!

                        I'll try more transitions within the canter too and see what comes of it. I'll keep you all posted and if anyone has any other suggestions feel free to pipe in! Thank you all again for the suggestions so far!

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          That's what I like about the segunda - it can be as gentle or harsh as you want it to be. For a horse like him, who does have a fairly soft mouth, just one little "bump" would probably bring him right back to you. If you think it's too much, then go with lucassb's suggestion of smaller Hunter port - something like this - http://www.greenvalleytack.com/image...deejtdport.jpg, which would be a little milder.

                          Have you ever tried a Mikmar D-ring? Obviously too expensive to buy just for experimentation, but if you could borrow one to try, it's worth a shot.

                          Out of curiosity, what is he/what's his breeding?

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster
                            #14
                            He is an OTTB - only raced a few times ...obviously he was incredible . Gets mistaken for a QH quite a bit though.

                            This is his pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/rainbow+bay2

                            I quite enjoy his transformation from Thoroughbred (first pic) to QH (last pic)

                            http://sports.webshots.com/photo/253...81786972UMLpFv
                            http://sports.webshots.com/photo/251...81786972RlzoVm
                            http://sports.webshots.com/photo/279...81786972bTehIZ
                            http://sports.webshots.com/photo/243...81786972tPllsz

                            Great little horse, couldnt ask for a better personality. He absolutley adores when he gets "his child" on him 9 year old beginner horse-crazy girl who comes to ride him a few times a year. She brings him "rockets" - his favourite candy!

                            I'll give the segunda and port a try next week, who knows, even if we can get around a 2'6 course without dragging our nose in the ground, I will be a very happy rider!

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              If you are struggling. . . here is an unconventional trick to try ( I may get flamed for this - but it works). He's a nice horse and worth it.

                              essentially you are going to make horse anti grazing reins. take some binder twine and tie one end to the bit - run the twine up thru the side of the browband and then tie with a bow to the D ring on your saddle. Do the same on the other side. Let him spend 10 minutes on the lunge line getting used to not being able to put his head so low. You are literally slowly going to adjust he twine on both sides so his head is where you want it. When his head is where you want it the twine shouldnt be pulling, but as soon as he goes too low, it should tighten. After a few sessions on the lunge, you can ride him in these and do trot rails, canter rails etc - but no jumping.

                              You could also try buying what I think is called a check rein or overcheck? from a place that sells driving harness. Its the rein that keeps driving horses heads up - and rig it with some twine to attach to your saddle.
                              Dina
                              www.olddominionsaddlery.com
                              http://www.facebook.com/olddominionsaddlery Like us on Facebook!!

                              Comment

                              • #16
                                I would not look to the bit for the fix, but rather to the ride. I would do lots of trot-halt-trot transitions. The key is in the trot out of the halt. That is where the horse will learn to track up and come underneath and lift at the withers. I would carry a dressage whip to make sure he really will step up and be responsive to leg. Once he started stepping underneath himself and bringing his wither up up to step forward on the trot transition, I would do canter-halt-back-canter transitions. I would only do two or three steps of backing, and would lift the hand so that he is not tempted to drop behind the bit for the backing. Again, it is the forward step into the last part of the exercise that is the essential part of the movement. Once the horse really gets it, I would do the halts at the end of the line, with the forward trot or canter out of the halt. Always reinforcing that the horse has to raise the wither and step under... which essentially is how you need to fix the curling up and lowering of the poll.

                                I think your guy is adorable, and would try a little longer before I switched him out to a new discipline. He looks like he has an A+ attitude, and you cannot find that too often. He just needs to rethink how to use his body parts.. raise his wither and step under with the hind end with a little more enthusiasm.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by toomanyponies View Post
                                  plus think 'bump him up'. . . leg on, lean back, lift hands up until poll is higher than wither and nose is out in front (think saddlebred hands),
                                  Raising the hands high and bumping the bridle usually encourages a horse to lower its head, especially if you are using a bit that has any curb action as the higher your hand position the more you are engaging the curb.

                                  To get a horse to elevate the forehand and bring its neck carriage up it will just take the good old fashion hard work and routine of teaching him to collect and engage his hind end, and then how high he carries his head and neck will be decided by his conformation.

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                                  • Original Poster
                                    #18
                                    To get a horse to elevate the forehand and bring its neck carriage up it will just take the good old fashion hard work and routine of teaching him to collect and engage his hind end, and then how high he carries his head and neck will be decided by his conformation.
                                    But how do I do this? I work on a lot of transitions with him....trot to halt, canter to trot or walk. Cant get the canter/halt too good yet, but we are working on it. He is not great with downward transitions, but does his best. During the downward transition, he gets low. Once I have him moving forward again he elevates slightly. I keep leg on. I'll keep working on it and try to be a little more devoted to schooling them more frequently (currently only riding once or twice a week).


                                    Today is school-pony day for him - he's gonna teach the papa how to ride

                                    Back to transitions next week!

                                    Comment

                                    • #19
                                      You all may disagree, but since he is built to carry himself low after all, I would keep using the gymnastics and little combinations to ask him to balance himself and let him be himself. He is adorable, and in the last video, even though he came away from the fence very low, he certainly wasn't dragging you around. Another thing that might help would be lines of 4 or even 3, so that he begins to look up for the next fence when he lands instead of cantering away so low. He's so quiet, I can see why you don't want to mess around too much with 'fixing' him.
                                      Last edited by Brooke; Feb. 7, 2010, 11:27 AM.

                                      Comment

                                      • #20
                                        In that last video you posted of him over fences, the pulling down may be partly due to your upper body over his shoulders. After the fence, try to bring your shoulders back and add leg.

                                        He is EXTREMELY cute. He has great form over fences, is a cuuuute mover, and seems like a good natured guy as well. Keep us posted!

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