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Baby Green Hunter Moment VIDEO UPDATE on p 10

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  • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
    You rode a horse with no forward established in draw reins? again.
    I did not. Neither did the owner actually (she did carry a crop and use a flash). This is what the trainer was telling the owner to do, and how he would insist on riding the horse. He wasn't with us daily, came to us for lessons a couple days a week. I've said it before-I am not a trainer. I'm a barn manager. Trust me, we did not feel comfortable with this approach and once we realized that was his common training techniques for greenies, we quickly employed a new trainer because we had a few greenies in the barn. Before that, it was just Adult riders, and he was fine for basic instruction on broke horses. I agree 100% draw reins on a horse that does not have a go button is a recipe for disaster and I now have proof in memory to go by.

    I, too, babied a tempermental soul. He's never fully reared, I think his self-preservation instinct is too high - thank god, but I feel he would quickly begin rearing if someone insisted at the wrong time.
    I've said this so many times-IMO, not flipping over is a sign of self-preservation. Rearing is just a big F-U, whether it's a full blown High Ho Silver, small pop, hesitating steps or just something you have in the back of your head he is capable of doing. It's one thing to be lazy and need a constant reminder to go forward, but to have the threatening mindset "I will rear if you push me"...

    Trainer insisted he move laterally off her leg one night (turn on the forehand or haunches...can't remember which one). Argument ensued and an hour later, horse won.
    This, IMO, is the hardest thing about working with horses, greenie or not greenie. You have to know what battles to pick and when to move on to something else. Another boarder has this mare than can be so dead quiet, like beat her around the ring quiet, or flighty and spooky (love mares!). The other day I FINALLY got the point across when she is the latter, just simplify and let it go! She was struggling to do a leg yield from 1/4 line to rail, pick up canter in the corner, The mare kept leaping and getting very strong, then started to spook and scoot. I watched for a while and suggested she go back to what she is 100% comfortable with, like w-t transitions down the quarter line, just to give her a break, but still remind her to stay focus. Even throw some halt, relax, pet the horse in there. Then walk a leg yield, pat the horse, trot to end, stop and pat. Then t-c transitions down 1/4 line. She ended up getting ONE trot leg yield, canter transition and that was all for the day. Why pick fight over something she can learn tomorrow if it's going to be SUCH an issue? And now she can do that exercise with no stress. When the rearing mare went to bootcamp, the trainer stressed the importance of no battle. When they fight, he simply gets off and ties the horse up for a while. Then rides later. Seriously helps, teaches patience and humbles them, and I think it does the same for the rider-a mental breather for all!

    As I said before...I do think a crop would've helped in the OP's situation...just a waggle by his eye to break his concentration. Because while he looked painfully slow...when he was focusing, he did go somewhere...just slowly.
    Agreed. There is a difference between what that guy was doing in the video clip and where the mare I mentioned got to as her final straw. Taking a crop to her would've ensued a huge fight because she already won before that day happened. But had she learned leg/crop means go from the beginning, she may not have reached the point she did. She was an OTTB and the trainer felt she needed to learn to go slow and controlled. But in reality, she was backwards and trapped so her rearing made sense.
    Last edited by Equino; Feb. 4, 2010, 04:36 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
      You rode a horse with no forward established in draw reins? again.

      I, too, babied a tempermental soul. He's never fully reared, I think his self-preservation instinct is too high - thank god, but I feel he would quickly begin rearing if someone insisted at the wrong time. Draw reins would send him over the edge...as one of his triggers is too much use of the reins. That's not to say he won't go forward and he doesn't give to the bridle...you just need to know when to ask, when to let go and when to give him a break.

      I backed a 3 year old this summer for someone very lightly.. lunging, walk/trot. She was very tempermental.. I mean rear and strike on the ground.
      Never offered to rear undersaddle when I was on her. I put about 5 rides on her when I got busy with my own horse and suggested they allow only experiance riders on her. I had a feeling this mare would escalate at any time she was unsure and she just needed time and patience.
      They allowed some 16 year old twit that was riding there to get on the mare. WITH DRAW REINS.. mare flipped herself over on the kid. FOrtunately no one was hurt but the mare now rears with any type pf pressure on her mouth..
      She become dangerous to ride, and unfortunately, if they dont send her to someone who can deal with it someone will get severly injured or killed or the mare will end up in the wrong hands.

      This is why I NEVER use draw reins on youngsters.. well one of many reasons. But also a good reason of why I teach them to move forward under any circumstances.

      I was thinking about this thread while I rode my mare last night. She was spooking at the far end of the arena..nothing major, but I spent a good 10 minutes down there making her go by until she was relaxed and ok with it.

      I get that Greenies will have baby moments. Sometimes they are justified and I give the benefit of the doubt, but I spend time working the horse through it right then.. no evasion.. just a firm reminder that I've asked the horse to trust me and to move forward...my mare was not pleased but knew I meant business..
      Love and Laughter - 2005 TB Mare - Boss Mare
      Foxfire Lacey - 2007 Half Welsh Superstar
      New Sensation - 1986- 2014 Love you to the moon and back

      Comment


      • bar.ka here

        i so sad. this thr.ead so sad. i read the posts and we.ep.

        u good girl who lov her horse and try hard.

        u keep petting po.ny around the courses. that builds lots of confidence. pat.pat.pat.

        u feed peppermints at the end of each trip.

        u get big old crop and bust that nags ass the next time it even slow down.

        we see u in gp ring in no time.

        Comment


        • I hope you never again have need for this (yes, unsolicited) advice, but as the owner of a horse that backs up when frightened, whom no amount of beating will move in a forward direction (although I have tried that approach many times in the hope that this will be the day), the most effective method of proceeding in the desired direction is to spin them in an circle around the inside leg until they decide it's easier to go forward. This has the added benefit of also preventing a rear if they are so inclined. And, finally, if all else fails, you can let them back up if they want...but in the direction that YOU want to go....and much further than they anticipated. That, however, is not a good plan on one that even thinks about going up, and needs to be saved for last-ditch efforts.

          Comment


          • bar.ka here

            ah ya the old spin.around trick. must be like ball.erina and pick one place to foc.us on. other.wise, maybe get dizzy.

            i once had a hor.se that i had 2 do same thin.g on. she was goo.d horse except 4 that.

            so.me times we play touch my boot with ur nose bad horse.

            Comment


            • I think the only thing that is being beaten here is the dead horse that is this thread.

              Listen to Barka. The advice is sound.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                I hope you never again have need for this (yes, unsolicited) advice, but as the owner of a horse that backs up when frightened, whom no amount of beating will move in a forward direction (although I have tried that approach many times in the hope that this will be the day), the most effective method of proceeding in the desired direction is to spin them in an circle around the inside leg until they decide it's easier to go forward. This has the added benefit of also preventing a rear if they are so inclined. And, finally, if all else fails, you can let them back up if they want...but in the direction that YOU want to go....and much further than they anticipated. That, however, is not a good plan on one that even thinks about going up, and needs to be saved for last-ditch efforts.
                The goal is to keep their feet moving even if it's sideways like you said when all else fails. This girl in the vid demonstrates the spin that you are talking about. I don't know if I agree with knowingly backing them up even if they are rearing, but sometimes the backing can't be helped as it shows in this video. Of course, at no point was this rider trying to back up the horse.

                This is how it's done even though it wasn't pretty, even though she won the battle (forward past the gate) and lost the war (falling off due to a refusal later in the course). After awhile of the rearing at the gate, this horse gives up like most of them will. He got her back later in the course though. That is the problem with intelligent horses that think too much.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsVN64DikzU

                Comment


                • I think that horse has the OP's number! He looked fresh ...got a hump in his back when she went to canter and I think when he balked at the gate, she didn't want to "kick on" or use a crop for fear that he would do a flying leap or buck. But really, that was not a spook in my opinion, that was a horse that did not want to go by the gate and learned he can back right out with little to no resistance from his rider. He looks like a kind horse though...the first round she added one too many strides to almost every jump and he was quite pleasant about it. I just think she looks a bit scared of him...scared to get any pace, scared of his buck, scared he is going to rear, and walks on eggshells with him. I think a pro riding him in the first class or schooling division would help a lot. Ok...disappearing now!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                    I hope you never again have need for this (yes, unsolicited) advice, but as the owner of a horse that backs up when frightened, whom no amount of beating will move in a forward direction (although I have tried that approach many times in the hope that this will be the day), the most effective method of proceeding in the desired direction is to spin them in an circle around the inside leg until they decide it's easier to go forward. This has the added benefit of also preventing a rear if they are so inclined. And, finally, if all else fails, you can let them back up if they want...but in the direction that YOU want to go....and much further than they anticipated. That, however, is not a good plan on one that even thinks about going up, and needs to be saved for last-ditch efforts.
                    Had one that would back faster if you hit him so I went to the spin-around trick. One day he came out of the spin facing 180° from his original direction and started backing, right past whatever it was that he'd refused to go by in the first place. I then spun him around 180° and we proceeded on our way down the trail. After that I will confess to using the technique of subtly changing his backing course so that he'd back past whatever was bothering him. Not that this is a recommended technique and this is a horse that went up maybe 2x in the 16 years I owned him.
                    The Evil Chem Prof

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by KC and the Sunshine Band View Post
                      No. I disagree with your entire post but I'll stick to this last paragraph. If this OP wasn't such a self rightious pain in the neck this probably wouldn't have gone so far, but since she is, why not keep going?

                      I suspect the horse will get worse. I also think the horse is under wieght, and a u neck with a pointy croup, but that's from a high aerial view from far away. Since the OP is such know it all on all things horse related to training, it's really amazing to see that her horse is in the condition it's in. I really expected too see a well muscled, round, forward horse, not the inverted thin horse in the video with no top line who backs out the in gate. I think every one who is as opinionated as the OP should be required to submit videos so we are able to determine how much weight to put on their opinions.
                      Interesting, considering she has to look down to check her leads! That is awful.
                      But George Morris still wears rust-colored breeches- so can I!

                      Comment


                      • The Important Stuff

                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                        THAT is some impressive hunter hair FAIL, and from a turn-out princess too (Were we the only ones braided? Why yes we were. Leave it to me to put in over 40 braids for a schooling show and then my hair does jazz hands out the back of my helmet.)

                        The one thing I said to my trainer when watching that video was "OMGWTF MY HAIR, HOW COULD YOU NOT SAY ANYTHING?! SERIOUSLY!"

                        So between the horse and the hair there were multiple mutinies on the bounty that day.

                        Le sigh.
                        Best part of this entire thread, glad I stuck it out!
                        Aunt Esther for President 2012

                        Comment


                        • I would just like to thank everyone who posted in this thread for giving me some much needed distraction from work today.

                          To the OP--cute horse. Good luck with him. Greenies are my favorite!

                          Comment


                          • Thanks guys, I just queried rearing as I have a young horse at the moment that has had similar issues with his young jockey; I knew you'd have advice!

                            It's a different situation as the horse I am riding, though young, has developed this 'habit' of acting up near the entrance to the ring and the kid has not been strong enough to ride through it.

                            Thanks for the reminder! I will follow Barka's wisdom. Not only did it make me laugh, but I think it's sound advice.



                            Originally posted by barka.lounger View Post
                            bar.ka here

                            ah ya the old spin.around trick. must be like ball.erina and pick one place to foc.us on. other.wise, maybe get dizzy.

                            i once had a hor.se that i had 2 do same thin.g on. she was goo.d horse except 4 that.

                            so.me times we play touch my boot with ur nose bad horse.

                            Comment


                            • HAHAHAHAHA! This is great! I love seeing video proof of certain COTH experts riding/training talents! Excellent advice on this thread. Good find doodlebug!

                              Comment


                              • I can't really add anything that hasn't been said. I do agree that a crop would have probably been a good tool to have. I also think that you have to choose your battles carefully and at a show is not the time to pick a fight that might take a considerable amount of time and effort to settle. For a greenbean, getting around the jumps and doing it quietly and in a somewhat organized fashion is generally considered a success. The issue that occured at the show will hopefully manifest at home or at a time when it can be properly addressed and solved. I think the ride was tactful and kind, if a bit backwards, but overall, not likely to cause permanent damage. I tend to err on the side of caution with greenies as well, so can sympathize with the ride that was given.

                                Comment


                                • I think he went great and he's adorable to boot! The funny part is, he didn't bat an eyelash at the jumps, which is a GREAT sign! Good luck on your greenie boy

                                  Comment


                                  • Wow, flash from the past! Any updates? Did the horse get over his balkiness or did further disobedience surface? Hope the former!

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      Originally posted by Equino View Post
                                      Wow, flash from the past! Any updates? Did the horse get over his balkiness or did further disobedience surface? Hope the former!
                                      I was unemployed for most of this year so we didn't do much.

                                      Now that I am working again, horse is schooling 3'6" at home (single oxers, not yet 3'6" courses.)

                                      He went to some schooling shows and wound up 6th in the local Baby Greens for the year.

                                      He is also qualified for dressage schooling show championships and has been scoring high 60's at First Level and high 60's/low 70's Prix Caprilli.

                                      For 2011 we have plans to do some more local hunter shows whose prize lists CLAIM they run 3' and 3'6" divisions, and when we have a couple of those under our belt to go to rated shows for the First Years. Trainer thinks it is a waste of the horse to step in the rated ring at lower than 3'6". Okey dokey then.

                                      Also hope to qualify for Region 9 Champs in First Level and to start showing Second.

                                      Trainer also introduces the horse to people as "This is our Children's hunter; his name is '8 Seconds,'" so he isn't perfect and he can give me a run for my money, but I am psyched to see how he'll develop in the next six months.

                                      eta
                                      These are some cute little pics of his first show after re-employment. (Also his first show after his Baby Green Hunter moment.)
                                      He was a good man and jumped bravely around, so I was proud of him.

                                      #1

                                      #2
                                      At 3'6" the picture is a bit different:
                                      he has his knees up by his ears and is cracking the mcshizzle out of his back, and I am desperately wishing I had ordered thigh blocks for the saddle and am wondering how on earth I am going to stay on in the one stride combination in the First Years.

                                      Note also that while there are no 40 braids for him, I did fix my mutiny hair.
                                      It seems karmic law has decreed that only one of us is allowed to have nice hair at a time.
                                      Last edited by meupatdoes; Nov. 10, 2010, 08:26 AM.
                                      The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                      Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                      Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                      The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                      Comment


                                      • Wow, someone really resurrected this thread? I just read the whole damn thing only to realize on the last page that it was almost a year old!

                                        I won't bother with anything else except to say, hey, your baby kinda looks like the one I will hopefully have purchased in the next two days! Except that forward button... yeah mine HAS that one! I'll be so happy when it has the COLLECTION button! lol
                                        ...for there are wings on these hooves, the speed and power of foam-capped waves...
                                        *~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*
                                        Proud member of the artists clique

                                        Comment


                                        • I am glad to hear your greenie is going well! Kinda odd a trainer would think showing in anything less than 3'6 at a rated show is a waste of time given the Pre-Green and Adequan divisions offer great mileage before asking a horse to step into the 3'6 ring. I don't know if they can get the same experience at local shows, but obviously any mileage is good!

                                          I've been working with one that one day over the summer realized there is no fence around the ring and decided to duck out. Luckily he never realized not going forward was an option and I was able to ride him through his temper tantrum, took about two rides with my trusty dressage whip and a shortened martingale. He no longer thinks leaving the ring on his own merit is a wise idea. I guess they all try it at some point, just easier to deal with at home!

                                          Comment

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