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ocala photographers -long

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  • ocala photographers -long

    Ok, I usually just come here once in a while and read posts. But now, I want to lodge a complaint against horse show photographers.

    First, I previously read some posts on the "off course" forum about how horse show photographers charge. So, armed with that information, I approached the horse show photographer at Ocala about using some photos on our farm's new website.

    First I asked, "Can I see your written policy on usage of photographs?" Both photographers who had booths at the show said they (it was their assistants, not the actual photographer)did NOT have one.

    Then I asked, "What do you charge to use a photograph for selling a horse on a website?" I about fell over when one said $250 for 1 year's use. I asked the next one and they just said $250 period.

    $250!!!!! per photo!!!! Our farm had about 8 horses they were going to put up. I asked a few more questions like quantity discounts, etc. I was told 'maybe' they could do a 'little' off for quantity and that "no" that price did NOT include using any photos for a farm brochure.

    Holy you know what! I walked away a little peeved. Then I ran into another big barn who had their website designers WITH them taking their own photos. I picked their brain a little and basically came away with this:

    #1, for the kind of money that the show photographer wanted, we could hire a professional photographer to either come to our farm or to the show for less money and we could keep ALL the photos and have all the rights. The web designers said they could give us a couple names of photographers who would do this.

    #2, They showed us their equipment and some of the photos that they had taken outside of the ring and they were every bit as good as the ones the professional show photographer had taken - a couple were even better with sharper focus and better timing.

    #3, the web designers said that they would use show photos if they were more reasonably priced but since they have gotten so out of hand, it was better economics to take their own.

    I tell you, the show photographers lost out big time especially if you count our barn plus what the barn that had the web designers doing.

    Unfortunate but I'll be making other plans to get photos from now on.
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Ok, I usually just come here once in a while and read posts. But now, I want to lodge a complaint against horse show photographers.

    First, I previously read some posts on the "off course" forum about how horse show photographers charge. So, armed with that information, I approached the horse show photographer at Ocala about using some photos on our farm's new website.

    First I asked, "Can I see your written policy on usage of photographs?" Both photographers who had booths at the show said they (it was their assistants, not the actual photographer)did NOT have one.

    Then I asked, "What do you charge to use a photograph for selling a horse on a website?" I about fell over when one said $250 for 1 year's use. I asked the next one and they just said $250 period.

    $250!!!!! per photo!!!! Our farm had about 8 horses they were going to put up. I asked a few more questions like quantity discounts, etc. I was told 'maybe' they could do a 'little' off for quantity and that "no" that price did NOT include using any photos for a farm brochure.

    Holy you know what! I walked away a little peeved. Then I ran into another big barn who had their website designers WITH them taking their own photos. I picked their brain a little and basically came away with this:

    #1, for the kind of money that the show photographer wanted, we could hire a professional photographer to either come to our farm or to the show for less money and we could keep ALL the photos and have all the rights. The web designers said they could give us a couple names of photographers who would do this.

    #2, They showed us their equipment and some of the photos that they had taken outside of the ring and they were every bit as good as the ones the professional show photographer had taken - a couple were even better with sharper focus and better timing.

    #3, the web designers said that they would use show photos if they were more reasonably priced but since they have gotten so out of hand, it was better economics to take their own.

    I tell you, the show photographers lost out big time especially if you count our barn plus what the barn that had the web designers doing.

    Unfortunate but I'll be making other plans to get photos from now on.

    Comment


    • #3
      Buy me a plane ticket and I'll come take all the pictures you want!! And you can use them for FREE!!! hehehehehe

      ::Jennie::
      "Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I've ever known."-Invisible Monsters
      Jennie
      \"If you\'re a horse, and someone gets on you, and falls off, and then gets right back on you, I think you should buck him off right away.\"-Deep thoughts by Jack Handy

      Comment


      • #4
        thats rediculous!!!

        *Spring Break*
        *Simon*
        *Homie S*

        Comment


        • #5
          yep! A lot of the photographers have gotten WAY out of hand and people are starting to wise up.

          There are good ones out there and the more people start communicating with the show promoters, telling them what to look for in a show photographer, these kinds of business practices will hopefully disappear.

          In the meantime, seek out and find photographers who will "work for hire" if you have them for a barn shoot - that means YOU own the pics, getting all negatives and rights. And write to your show promoters with a list of photogs that will offer reasonable pricing.

          Comment


          • #6
            BOY... that is definatley something that had to be addressed. I am glad that at least someone had the nerve to speak. You have to let me know the results. I think it is crazy that they charge the fees that they do..YOU GO !!!

            Comment


            • #7
              About every other year a group at my barn gets a photog to do a photo shoot at the farm. They charge a "farm visit" fee, which we all split and then a "by the roll" fee. I get a 4x6 of all the pics shot from the roll for that fee. I order enlargments from the photog. It is very reasonable and I have many beautiful pics of my horses.

              Comment


              • #8
                This is interesting!

                I too read a previous thread regarding photographers and the photographers participating in the thread wanted us all to believe that most of them have these so called written policy on usage. Anyone who said differently was basically blasted.

                Now, we can see an example of 2 high profile photographers at a VERY high profile show where neither has the written policy.

                So my question is that if the photographer doesn't bother letting the buyer know what the policy is, I guess one could use the photos for whatever one wanted to use them for - web, ads, brochures, etc without recourse from the photographer!!! Would serve them right in my opinion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'll have to look this guy up, but I had a pro photo I used for an ad, and he didn't charge me anything. He just said make sure he gets a credit in the ad.
                  Man plans. God laughs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    as a pro photographer, a lot goes into each shot - but as a consumer, for the most part, prices are ridiculous. Here's your solution - fly me down, pay for film/lodging costs, maybe take me on a trail ride or something and I'll shoot whatever you want.
                    ---
                    They're small hearts.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      I'm glad I'm not just a small minority who feel this way.

                      Trixie - That is exactly what the web designers said. It is more economical to hire a private professional photographer under the agreement that all the film/photo rights belong to the horse owner than it is to deal with some of these equine photographers out there who seem to have a more than usually high opinion of themselves and their work.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just to stand up for my fellow photogs...not everyone charges the same rates for usage. And you should contact the photographer or owner of that business and ask them the rate, since it sounds like the assistants didn't actually know.
                        Onawa
                        Equestris Photography
                        http://horsephotography.homestead.com

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          The were in the booths, taking money. I don't buy the excuse that they didn't actually know. They quoted the price very matter-of-factly and one said that the photographer was very strict about his price. So...they knew.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            WOW! I am in Ocala and just bought 3 pictures from one of the professional photographers here. In all honesty, it NEVER occurred to me that, if I want to use one to put an ad in COTH I would have to pay an additional fee.

                            What really irks me about these guys is that there are 2 groups here and they try to not duplicate rings. That would be fine if a photographer was really TAKING pictures in that ring. On Friday the Modified Adults were in ring one and the "Hi-Low Junior/Amateurs" were in ring 2. The latter group use this division for schooling before their A/O or Jr. classes on the weekend. They go in unbraided and practice. The Mod. Ammies often do not do another division, and are ALL nicely braided and dressed.

                            Guess which ring the photographer spent 75% of his time shooting? I moved to about 40' away from the professional to take pictures of a friend with my new digital camera and the man got up and walked away and stood at the ingate laughing and talking with friends. (Not turning around and taking pictures of the Mod. Ad. which he easily could have done).

                            And, in 15 out if 16 pictures that were taken of George, the picture was taken a millisecond too early. My trainer explained that George stalls off the ground and jumps a lovely round jump (which is why he won so much), but that photographers are just so used to snapping at a certain time after the horse gets to the jump, that they really don't even look through the lens anymore to see exactly WHERE in his arc the horse is. I will probably never get a good side view of G from a professional horse show photographer because of this. So I started taking my own One is attached.

                            But my REAL vent is about the video people..... So disorganized. So Expensive. I did not preview the rounds I ordered ($8/each to look once) because of their disorganization -- it takes forever for them to find the tape/round. But I probably should have since I heard people who were watching say several times "What happened to the first jump?" or "Where is the beginning of the course?"

                            So for my $170, I have no idea what I will get. Or when I will get it.....

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            I always live within my means, even if I have to borrow to do it.
                            Attached Files
                            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                            Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Its true. Photographers throw big fits about their "art" and their "work" and their "copyrights" and how they "had to go to school to learn it" on and on and on - like the rest of us haven't and are just boring automatons.

                              But the vast majority don't bother to have a clear cut business way of operating and don't bother to communicate their usage policies. I really think some do this so they can come back to you with their hands held out for more money. It has happened to us several times - paid for photos under an agreement and then they want it changed after the fact...and more money.

                              Next time any of you buy a photo, if it doesn't say somewhere on the invoice that you are forbidden to use it for anything other than the one pic for personal use, USE IT FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT - ADS, WEB, WHATEVER, MAKE AS MANY COPIES AS YOU WANT. Then maybe these photographers will sit up and take notice - if they threaten you, ask them where it says in writing - that should shut them up!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Greetings, been there:

                                You said:
                                "Next time any of you buy a photo, if it doesn't say somewhere on the invoice that you are forbidden to use it for anything other than the one pic for personal use, USE IT FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT - ADS, WEB, WHATEVER, MAKE AS MANY COPIES AS YOU WANT. Then maybe these photographers will sit up and take notice - if they threaten you, ask them where it says in writing - that should shut them up!"

                                It says it right in the Federal Copyright Laws of 1976. It says you cannot use images for commercial purposes without the written premission of the copyright holder, who is ALWAYS the photographer, unless stated otherwise in writing. Easy to find online. I mention this only because I figure you'd prefer to be accurately informed.

                                Susan Sexton

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  yes, but Susan, if the invoice says the same thing whether you buy the photo for just personal use or commercial use and there is no set fee - all negotiated - and there is no written policy on usage, it is just the photographers word against the buyers word. ie if the photo was bought for say $50, whose to say that the agreement was for one time use, unlimited use, or whatever. The photographers are really dropping the ball on this one. You can't have it both ways and you can't expect the CLIENT to play 20 questions trying to figure it all out.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    $250????????? That's crazy!!!! I was the show photographer at a show today, and I made $250 total on just the on the spot purchases....not per photo! That's way too expensive! It doesn't costs very much to develope the pictures yourself!

                                    If someone buys a picture from me, they bought it! It has my signature in the corner, and if they wanna use it in an ad, or a brochure, they can. Because they bought the photo and that's final! I'm not gunna charge extra just because I know they're using it to advertice! These photographers are just after the big money, whether they can take a good picture or not!

                                    ==========

                                    With that said, I must say one thing in defense of photographers as well. Someone mentioned how photographers can't get a good picture of their horse because of the way he jumps. Unfortionatly, the photographer doesn't know your horse jumps that way, and even if they notice it the first time they see it, they probably won't remember because they see so many horses go in and out. So you've gotta give them credit for getting something half decent sometimes.

                                    But still, I think the prices are getting outragous! Can you guess how much this picture cost for a 8x10?
                                    http://www.geocities.com/bbdetour/VPDewyjumpnamed.jpg (copy and paste)
                                    only $13!!! If you have the talent, you don't need the school, and you don't need to blow everyone away with your prices!

                                    "It takes one to ride, but two to win."

                                    "There is fate, but it only takes you so far. Because once you're there it's up to you to make it happen"
                                    \"It takes one to ride, but two to win.\"
                                    www.knegliaphotos.com

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Really Susan, as much as I admire your work, you can't really expect the consumer to check the LAW everytime they buy something?!!

                                      Should a consumer, everytime they walk into a antique store, clothing store, tack shop, china shop, etc., look up the law first to make sure that they have a right to use whatever it is that they are buying!!!?

                                      Isn't it the photographers place to put that copyright information ON THEIR OWN PAPERWORK? Come on Susan, don't pass the buck here. It's not flying!!!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Maybe it's just me but I can't help thinking it would be easier to buy all the negatives. Then you could use them as you please.

                                        Actually I don't mind buying from the photographer but it has gotten so expensive that I've begun to shoot some of my own and am getting pretty good at it now. I even take them for friends .
                                        "We don't ride the clock. We ride the horse." Reiner Klimke.
                                        http://community.webshots.com/user/arnikaelf

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