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vent on ethics

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  • vent on ethics

    Why is it some trainers, BNT, have no ethics??? I have a kid at my farm, 12, that just got a horse for Christmas. Sounds like a wonderful present correct?? Well the horse is a 4 yr old, TBX, mare, that trots in canters out lines, green. The kid is a short stirrup kid who just finished 2009 in short stirrup with her bombproof pony. Mom decided that buying a fancy prospect was the way to go, and thinks kid can ride and has talent. Mare has a reputation already as being "wired wrong" and when broke, flipped completely over on the rider breaking it. It was turned back out and restarted later. Kid has confidence issues and is not the bravest kid when she gets on something forward. Kid has never riden anything green other then her bombproof pony who could careless what she did, his answer was always whatever. So now this trainer is from a BN hunter barn and pushed and pushed for the sale of this horse to these people. WHY??? The horse was in full training at their barn, but at our barn, trainer will only come to give the kid lessons and the mare will no longer be getting pro rides. Mom thinks kid is a natural and can handle and ride their new "fancy" project. I know this kid, as I trained her for over a year and the pony. But really why do some BNT or even LNT, or anyone for that matter forget all ethics when selling a horse esp for a kid??? These people flashed their money, told the trainer they wanted fancy and this is what they got. UGH. Anyway rant over............

  • #2
    Originally posted by horseladi78 View Post
    So now this trainer is from a BN hunter barn and pushed and pushed for the sale of this horse to these people.
    How do you know that this is the case?
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
    Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      because i know the barn, trainers and know that this trainer "pushes" sales... this horse has been for sale for several months and could not get sold

      Comment


      • #4
        These people flashed their money, told the trainer they wanted fancy and this is what they got.
        Were you privy to ALL the conversations? Perhaps the mare is in full training, to be ridden only under supervision. You said the mare is wired and reared- but then maybe they got past the issue- a lot of that can be fixed with diet, turnout and not a lot of effort. My mare was a nut the first two months I owned her- now you can ride her in icy wind on the buckle and you'd still be needing spurs.

        Maybe for the money they had, this was the only way they could get flashy- the cute photo journal of the OTTB and the SS kid comes to mind.

        Comment


        • #5
          My question would be why was a SS kid and mom horse shopping without a trainer present?
          Ridge Farm Inc.-full care retirement
          http://www.horseretirementfarm.com

          Comment


          • #6
            In defense of the BNT, I have been in the past the idiot who bought a young green horse for my child (& myself). In fact, I have made more stupid mistakes buying horses then I have making good decisions! It took me a lot of money to stop picking my own horses & pay a professional who has my best interest at heart. All trainers are trying to get rid of horses that they don't like or want in their barns. Some send these animals to lower level trainers to get rid of them. It is buyer beware out there. This may be a good example of why we need to have an organization that certifies trainers. Then we need owners, riders & parents to find out who the certified trainers are & then use them & only them. Usually the BNT's won't sell a horse if they don't believe in the animal. It should & will ruin their reputation.

            This sounds like a sad situation for both the child & the horse. Keep us posted. I'll be interested to see how long it takes the parents to realize what has happened.

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh- reread- no full training....

              There is always the possibility it is a great prospect. And you'd be suprised- sometimes an ambitious parent pushes for the wrong horse.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                It just seems such an unwise decision. If I had not trained this kid for a year, I could careless but I did and I let them go because the Mom was to overzealous about the kid winning. Maybe the mare will work out, but I don't see this kid being able to handle a green horse, let alone a green mare who has a history of being wired wrong, not just physically but the lineage of this mare too has been known for being difficult. Obviously the said mare can't be of that great of quality temperment wise or the mare would not have been sold outside this trainers barn. Mom thinks she got a bargain!

                Comment


                • #9
                  MAybe the trainer that sold the horse to the people is HOPING the horse won't work out where the horse is or with the kids present trainer and the parents will blame the kids trainer and move to the BNT barn thereby giving him the sale of the horse, a new boarder , a new student , and a horse is full traing . Cha Ching If this is not possible then your right the trainer needed to dump the horse..

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yeah, but OP, this is barely your problem, right?

                    The kid rides with the BNT who sold her (mom) the horse, but keeps it at your place?

                    If so, it seems like you have two choices. Do what you can to keep the kid safe while she's on your property. And/or ask the BNT what the plan is for keeping the kid safe and progressing. I don't see how the trainer can think this will work without the horse in full training with pro rides. You may lose a boarder in the process. If you weren't their trainer at the time, then unfortunately, you didn't get a say in their purchase.

                    Usually, one of the things that keeps trainers honest is that they have to train whatever POS horse they convince their clients to buy. It may work out best in the long run if you send the family to the BNT who made the mess... and wait for the scales to fall from their eyes. Perhaps the kid will come back to you for the next one.
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by horseladi78 View Post
                      It just seems such an unwise decision. If I had not trained this kid for a year, I could careless but I did and I let them go because the Mom was to overzealous about the kid winning. Maybe the mare will work out, but I don't see this kid being able to handle a green horse, let alone a green mare who has a history of being wired wrong, not just physically but the lineage of this mare too has been known for being difficult. Obviously the said mare can't be of that great of quality temperment wise or the mare would not have been sold outside this trainers barn. Mom thinks she got a bargain!
                      There you go!!! The Mom was overzealous. That was me. I had to learn the hard way.
                      However, I admire you for being caring & concerned & obviously "good guy" trainer. There should be more of you & your type of ethical trainer out there.
                      I "hopefully" have learned my lesson. From now on I listen intently to what I'm being told. Then.....I don't trust my own judgment.....I trust my trainers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by horseladi78 View Post
                        Mom decided that buying a fancy prospect was the way to go, and thinks kid can ride and has talent.

                        <snip>

                        Mom thinks kid is a natural and can handle and ride their new "fancy" project.
                        This sounds like more the issue to me. Why do mom and kid both think she's up to this challenge? Sounds like a trainer wasn't too honest about poopsie's abilities and the kind of horse they should be looking for. The second they started looking for "fancy" the trainer should've gotten involved and said poopsie wasnt' ready for fancy unless it's a super quiet saint of a fancy horse.

                        I find less fault with the seller than the buyer and the people on her side of the equation.
                        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                          This sounds like more the issue to me. Why do mom and kid both think she's up to this challenge? Sounds like a trainer wasn't too honest about poopsie's abilities and the kind of horse they should be looking for. The second they started looking for "fancy" the trainer should've gotten involved and said poopsie wasnt' ready for fancy unless it's a super quiet saint of a fancy horse.

                          I find less fault with the seller than the buyer and the people on her side of the equation.
                          You are right. Buyer BEWARE. The professional's job is to sell the horse. The parent's job is to find the safest horse for the child. Professional did their job....did the parent??

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Try selling a quiet, safe, easy-to-ride Appendix QH that is about 15h tall and could teach anyone how to jump little courses and do second level dressage, and could take them politely around the horseshows tomorrow, and you will see just how much more people want to spend twice as much money (literally, in this case) on something fancier and completely unsuitable.

                            These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.

                            But of course when it goes wrong the trainer gets blamed.
                            The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                            Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                            Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                            The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                              These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.
                              This would have been a new-keyboard moment had I not long since learned not to drink and read COTH at the same time.
                              Originally posted by HuntrJumpr
                              No matter what level of showing you're doing, you are required to have pants on.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I used to ride with someone who, more than once, flat out told a potential buyer, "No--I will not sell you this horse. You can speak directly with the owner, but I will not be involved in the transaction."

                                As a DVM, I consider suitability to be an integral part of the PPE when I'm dealing with a kid's horse. Especially when there are signs the parent is not as knowledgeable as they like to think. I'll give them a very blunt opinion about the potential for carnage.
                                The non-horsey types all seem to think their kid is the next Margie Goldstein-Engle...
                                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                  Try selling a quiet, safe, easy-to-ride Appendix QH that is about 15h tall and could teach anyone how to jump little courses and do second level dressage, and could take them politely around the horseshows tomorrow, and you will see just how much more people want to spend twice as much money (literally, in this case) on something fancier and completely unsuitable.

                                  These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.

                                  But of course when it goes wrong the trainer gets blamed.
                                  I WAS this idiotic mother/buyer/rider. I was wrong, I was dumb/stupid. I was the mom of a talented kid with little money (compared to what we needed to do the big eq). I thought that I had the answers. I was wrong. I thought that because I had ridden & shown that I knew what was needed. I was WRONG. This mom is also probably wrong. She will learn a very hard lesson. If she is being cheap with the horse, it is probably because they can not compete at the level of Bruce Springsteen's (I hope that I spelled that correctly) daughter. Although, his daughter is exceptionally talented.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                    Try selling a quiet, safe, easy-to-ride Appendix QH that is about 15h tall and could teach anyone how to jump little courses and do second level dressage, and could take them politely around the horseshows tomorrow, and you will see just how much more people want to spend twice as much money (literally, in this case) on something fancier and completely unsuitable.

                                    These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.

                                    But of course when it goes wrong the trainer gets blamed.
                                    Can I have The Noodle????

                                    Please???

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                                      I used to ride with someone who, more than once, flat out told a potential buyer, "No--I will not sell you this horse. You can speak directly with the owner, but I will not be involved in the transaction."

                                      As a DVM, I consider suitability to be an integral part of the PPE when I'm dealing with a kid's horse. Especially when there are signs the parent is not as knowledgeable as they like to think. I'll give them a very blunt opinion about the potential for carnage.
                                      The non-horsey types all seem to think their kid is the next Margie Goldstein-Engle...
                                      Thank you

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                                        This sounds like more the issue to me. Why do mom and kid both think she's up to this challenge? Sounds like a trainer wasn't too honest about poopsie's abilities and the kind of horse they should be looking for. The second they started looking for "fancy" the trainer should've gotten involved and said poopsie wasnt' ready for fancy unless it's a super quiet saint of a fancy horse.

                                        I find less fault with the seller than the buyer and the people on her side of the equation.
                                        See my post above.

                                        Scared lady who has never ridden past Training level comes tries my horse, at our mutual trainer's suggestion.
                                        Horse behaves beautifully despite torrential downpour, lady decides horse is not for her because she wants something, and I quote, "with bigger gaits". What kind of bigger gaits can you need when you have never executed First Level is beyond me, but whatever.

                                        Goes on to spend twice as much money, against trainer's advice, on 4yo, which she "splurges" one month of pro training on (ha.), then takes it home and it takes off bucking with her down the long side within the month.


                                        If I had a dollar for every quiet, safe, sane, forgiving packers that I have demo-ridden, be they my horses or someone else's horses, h/j or dressage, for scared middle -aged amateur women who turn them down, I would own Rumba by now. If I got another dollar for every one of them who later bought a more expensive and less suitable horse you could throw in In Disguise.

                                        One person came to try my Appendix at his dressage barn, and it came out that a year ago she had tried another horse at a hunter barn that I had demo ridden for quite a few ladies, turned HIM down (and I know that horse, he would have been PERFECT for her), and bought an 18h behemoth instead, that scared the bejeesus out of her, and was now a year later looking at mine as a confidence builder, but not to buy only to lease, because she really wanted a bigger horse.

                                        Ultimately, in the end, the person holding the check book makes the decision. The fact that they are usually completely unqualified to make this decision does not stop them from ignoring any advice. People would object STRONGLY to handing the trainer a check and saying, "Find me something, I trust your judgment, whatever shows up in the barn after you buy it I will ride, and I will not care if it has a hammer head or won't win the hack I just want to learn to jump 2'6"" but the less advanced you are the more you need that.
                                        Never going to happen though.

                                        If only their checkbook pays for their mistake, they are lucky.
                                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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