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Leasing horse and Owner got ribbons in Houston

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  • Leasing horse and Owner got ribbons in Houston

    Hi all,

    Just a word of warning, if you show at the SJHSA at all, on a lease horse, or a horse that you are just using for that division to get year end awards, make sure you have something in WRITTING that you get the awards, cause even when SANJAC KNOWS you paid entries all the owner has to do is call and get year end awards sent to them. No questions asked. Right or Wrong, they don't care. I hate that this happened, and know there are a ton of kids out there leasing horses...people can be super ignorant, and not care. So make sure you have something to back you up. And don't think it being on rider is any help...cause it has nothing to do with anything. So rider BEWARE.
    May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
    www.mmceventing.com

  • #2
    Don't the prizes always go to the owner if the class is judged on the horse? I would think only equitation prizes would go to the rider? The only time I've ever seen something different is if the owner and rider have a specific situation worked out in advance.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      not usually, at least never before.

      I dunno about that, but I know that everytime we have ever won ribbons on another owners horse, at the awards banquet, we ALWAYS got them. On top of this, the division was awarded based on HORSE/RIDER combination. Meaning if the horse was used by any other person, then that person/horse would count seperately. On top of this, it was a lease situation where we used the horse for the day, paid the entries, and paid the hauling. Just like most of the other people that lease. IF that were the case, think of how many kids/adults out there, who lease a horse, pay the class fee's and trainer fee's and then they don't get the ribbons that they earned?

      I think before associations take money from riders who are on different horses, they shoudl be sure who they are going to give the ribbons to at the end of the year. I am absolutely amazed that SAN JAC did this. And they did it, inspite of the fact that they knew we were paying the entries, and it was indeed a class that was based on Rider and Horse. Not that it really mattered, am not that worried about us, but that opens the door for a lot of other people to have the same situation happen to them.

      Just a warning with this particular organization. I doubt GHHJA would have done it, or STHJA, they know us well.

      IF the owner pays for the entries and for any other expenses, than of course they should be entitled to the ribbons, and we always make sure in those scenerio's that the owner GETS the ribbons. Just irks me when an organization I have spent thousands of dollars with chooses to ignore my attempts to have them do the right thing, and disregard our notices, and what was aparent to them. I doubt they ever even met the owner of this horse...as they never came to any shows.
      May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
      www.mmceventing.com

      Comment


      • #4
        It doesn't sound like the association is at fault here. It is not their responsibility to look up who paid the show entries and then give the ribbons only to that person. It is not wrong of them to give them to the horse's owner. Of course if you are leasing a horse and pay the show expenses then you are entitled to ribbons, but it is your responsibility to work that out with the owner, not the show associations job!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gold2012 View Post
          Hi all,

          Just a word of warning, if you show at the SJHSA at all, on a lease horse, or a horse that you are just using for that division to get year end awards, make sure you have something in WRITTING that you get the awards, cause even when SANJAC KNOWS you paid entries all the owner has to do is call and get year end awards sent to them. No questions asked. Right or Wrong, they don't care. I hate that this happened, and know there are a ton of kids out there leasing horses...people can be super ignorant, and not care. So make sure you have something to back you up. And don't think it being on rider is any help...cause it has nothing to do with anything. So rider BEWARE.
          Prize goes to the owner of the horse.
          USEF does it that way. Look at their year end standings. Horse name/Owner name.
          If a lease is filed with USEF then the horse is shown in the name of the person leasing the horse. In that case the owner becomes the person leasing.
          Most local associations give the prize to the owner.

          Comment


          • #6
            If you feel so inclined, you could place an order with a ribbon making company, www.hodgesbadge.com is frequently used. If you know what places you got just order yourself some ribbons in the placings you earned. Ribbons usually aren't very expensive, go get some nice big ones. Heck, if you know what the year end ribbons look like you can even match the style.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              yes, well let me also replace the Championship ribbons. And we aren't talking a recognized show series, so....getting the whole leasing thing through USEF would be a little overboard. AND we aren't talking people who didn't know that this was going on....They knew. And at the same time, they gave us ribbons that were for horses not owned by us...at the same banquet. So....it was only a championship that they felt the need to do....

              here is the thing okay...IF they had that policy accross the board, no problem. IF they hadn't known us well, again, no problem. IF they hadn't handed ribbons out to us that belonged to yet a different owner, no problem...but the championship ribbon, trophy and prize were not?

              Well, all I really care is this, when you are showing someone else's horse, and it is a small circuit, and all, you should have in writting that you are leasing that horse, or borrowing it for the day or whatever...because all the money you put into going to that show, and making sure you are there, especially if you are chasing points for champion, which we were, can be wasted if the owner decides they want to claim the prizes. I know of several kids who "borrow" a horse for the day, be it a lesson horse, or someone out at the barn who doesn't mind, if it could happen so brazenly here, then it could happen to some kid. And it has been my expierance that people will get "prize hungry" and grab what they can. Personally, I don't need another ribbon, we have a wall full, I don't need the bridle, and I don't need the trophy, but it shouldn't have happened like it did.
              May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
              www.mmceventing.com

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Okay, thinking about this. I can just see where this is going to end up going. FYI, after posting this, I have gotten two PM's from other's who show there in that circuit, and had it happen to them. One was a 10 y.o. and the trainer took the ribbon and said to her "It's My Horse".

                I want to reiterate, we don't much care about the prizes or ribbons, she won the championship, and that was the fun part. As for the owner who took what didn't belong to her, she isn't our problem anymore, and are moving on with bigger and better horses.

                I just don't agree that ribbons/prizes should go to an owner automatically. I believe if it's a rider/horse combination that is prized, then give the "rider" the awards. Let him and the owner deal with who get's what. I believe most riders give the ribbons over to the owners. I don't believe visa versa happens as easily. I don't think it's up to an organization to decide that, and get in the middle. IF it's based on horse soley, well, then that might be a different matter...but even then, if there was a box to check on the sign up that you are leasing the horse, and therby get the ribbons, etc...see where I am trying to go for this?

                I just know it has happened a few times in this organization, and it was just a warning. No one should have an objection to someone filing a note with San Jac or any other association, that this person is leasing the horse, no matter for a day, the show, or anything else.

                I also think that if an association is going to have a rule, which they don't, regarding this, it needs to be the same accross the board...not just when it's us, or someone they don't particularily like, or a grand champion ribbon.

                Again, who cares about ribbons, plates and bridles. My daughter is a great rider, headed to much higher things...but watch out for the kids out there. End of points.
                Last edited by gold2012; Dec. 8, 2009, 10:50 PM. Reason: misspelling
                May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
                www.mmceventing.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Last time I showed for points, our local treated a full lease as though the rider "owned" that horse for the circuit and the awards went to the rider. At every barn I've boarded with, if the lessee is paying all of the horse's bills and entry/other show fees, they get the ribbons. I have some nice year-end ribbons I won with a leased horse.

                  If you are showing FOR someone (even if you are not getting paid) and/or they pay any of the horse's bills, they get the prizes from all classes judged on the horse.

                  IMO, for the trainer to take the ribbon from the 10-year-old is just a really crappy thing to do, unless it was arranged before hand...but still, pretty lousy...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I just don't understand why you think it is the show association's fault. This is a disagreement between the rider/leasee and the owner. It really has nothing to do with the show association. They aren't doing anything wrong by giving the prizes to the owner.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you are in line to win a year end title it would seem to make sense to discuss with the owner before the awards ceremony how you might split prizes etc.

                      It seems that if you are leasing long term (not just "for a few shows") and have been the regular rider, it would be a nice courtesy for the owner to allow you to keep prizes/ribbons. After all, they were compensated for the use of the horse. (I am assuming that the rider is an ammy.)

                      If the rider is a pro, the owner gets the award as the pro is compensated for his/her riding skills and has been hired by the owner to show etc.

                      As for the BO taking the award from a 10yo child because she owns the horse, that's pretty sad.
                      F O.B
                      Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                      Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We will be leasing our horse for the competition year and I could not imagine taking an award away from someone who has been successful in the show ring!! When a professional shows the horse and is compensated for that, then the prize (ribbon/money/halter, etc) should go to the owner of the horse to do with it what they please (keep/give to the pro/etc). If someone is paying for the expenses of the horse at the show or on a regular basis, then the prize should go to the party that pays the bills.

                        We have bee careful and hope that we have a someone leasing our horse who will be a good match and able to show him off so, the expenses and the glory will go to the leasee. The record goes with the horse, so the leasee's success should be enough.

                        Taking a year end/series award away from a 10 year-old who has earned it is NOT okay! Perhaps in this situation the association should offer to order two ribbons (one for the rider/leasee and one for the owner) at at fee that will cover the costs. That way everyone will be satisfied.
                        Last edited by SoBeIt; Dec. 9, 2009, 03:41 AM. Reason: thought of more!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If you pay the lease and you pay the entries, the prizes are yours.
                          The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gold2012 View Post
                            Okay, thinking about this. I can just see where this is going to end up going. FYI, after posting this, I have gotten two PM's from other's who show there in that circuit, and had it happen to them. One was a 10 y.o. and the trainer took the ribbon and said to her "It's My Horse".

                            I think I would be finding a new trainer. Ribbons mean a lot to kids that age, and that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

                            I could see the owner wanting the ribbon if the horse won something at Warrenton or Devon or somewhere like that, but at a schooling circuit?? Give me a break. And I"m with those who said if you are leasing the horse and paying it's bills, the awards are yours. It's different if it's a school pony that everyone in the barn showed during the year.
                            "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roxy SM View Post
                              I just don't understand why you think it is the show association's fault. This is a disagreement between the rider/leasee and the owner. It really has nothing to do with the show association. They aren't doing anything wrong by giving the prizes to the owner.
                              This!

                              It is an incredible amount of work to put on a show series, track and tally points, order and distribute prizes, not to mention putting on banquets etc.

                              This is a disagreement with the owner who it sounds like contacted the association before the OP and asked for the prizes. It is not the association's responsibility to referee a dispute between the owner and the rider.

                              I do think this is unfortunate since, in my experience, absent any specific agreement, the prizes would go to the person who is leasing.

                              One question, was this a full lease or a lease for show days only and, if it is for show days only, is there a separate lease fee for the horse apart from the show expenses? While I would still think that the person leasing should get the prizes, if the owner is paying 100% of the horses expenses 365 days a year and letting someone else show, I can see why they might feel they are entiltled to something.
                              Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                              Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Who paid to sign the horse up with the local association for the year end awards? The horse's owner or the leasee?

                                If both parties (leasee & owner) were there when the prize was handed out, why is the association being blamed for giving it to the wrong party? Those 2 parties could have hashed it out right then.

                                I am a board member on a local association. Planning the year end banquet each year is the equivalent of planning a wedding for 400 people PLUS the awards for 50 some divisions. We can only go by who is listed as owner on the membership form. We don't have a space for "leasees" nor do we track those. That is to be worked out between the leasee & owner because honestly we already have enough on our plates.
                                "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Umm....they are ribbons. What's the big deal?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I moved to New England last summer, where local associations are HUGE and people chase points like nobody's business... So I leased a horse for the summer/early fall and was told to enter him and I in all of the associations.

                                    What ALL of the associations told me is to put myself down as owner, otherwise I would 1) be responsible for owner's association fees and 2) would not receive any of the awards, and I would be responsible for the fees to send all the awards to said owner (as she lived a few states away). So I did, he was registered with USEF under owners name, but according to all of the local stuff he was 'mine'.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by jse View Post
                                      Umm....they are ribbons. What's the big deal?
                                      yup, they are "just" ribbons..so why would an adult feel the need to confiscate them from a KID? Hope the "owners" feel the accomplishment...
                                      The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        If it is NOT a USEF show?

                                        Just list YOURSELF as owner on your annual membership application and horse recording form and on each show's entry blank.

                                        It does NOT matter and the board of these things really does not care. The secretary gets the results from the show and just processes them according to who and what the paperwork says, they don't cross reference with personal notes. If the membership information master list says Pookey is owned by John Smith, John Smith gets the points credited to him for all Hunter and Jumper classes, Lisa Leasor gets the Eq points credited to her (if she is also a recorded and paid up member).

                                        Lisa can list herself as owner on the membership form at the beginning of the year and on the show entry blanks.

                                        It is NOT the USEF and it does not really matter as long as the lease contract is clear on the actual owner.

                                        "They" really don't always know (or care much about) lease, half lease and ownership agreements-it's what is on the forms and what the show sends in.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment

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