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spinoff re: Ace

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  • spinoff re: Ace

    I have a young TB mare that I've taken to a couple of small shows just to school around. I give her 1/4 to 1/2cc Ace before we go just to make the trailer ride and the first hour or so a little less exciting. I'm wondering how long it takes for it to clear the system, and if it would test if I were to actually show her in the afternoon. I don't want to do anything illegal, and I'd want it to be out of her system, but I'd also like her to be able to come off the trailer with a little something to help her think it's no big deal.

  • #2
    I believe it is 7 days, but cant quite remember - it might be 10.

    Dormoseden is only 48 hrs - more expensive but you give less.
    Dina
    www.threewishesfarm.com
    www.fairharbourfarm.com
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    • #3
      Honest question here, so I guess flame suit on? haha

      But is it common practice for people to ace their horses for riding and showing? This is the second thread I've seen just today about using ace to ride a horse.

      Why not spend the time to teach your horse to acclimate to new places and behave?

      I really do want to know the reasoning behind drugging a horse to make them 'safe' and/or rideable in a non-home environment.

      I own 4 off the track TBs and rarely even lunge them after lots of time off, let alone give them any kind of medication.......I spent the time to teach them.

      Is it a matter of a rider being able to handle a hot/hyper horse vs. one who isn't as able?

      I know this sounds snotty and like I'm trying to start a fight...take it however you will, but I really DO want to know why people drug their horses. I GET if they're coming off injury and are WIRED and you need them calm to not injure themselves....but other situations, not so much.

      OK back to my cave...
      Kelli
      Horse Drawings!

      Comment


      • #4
        I can give an example. . . nice horse, goes nicely at home, but green and sensitive. Maybe a little funny in crowds - or maybe a little funny about noises - whatever. He's perfect at home - jumps courses, does all the flat work. You want to start taking him to a show, BUT you want it to be a pleasant, successful experience. So, you could get him extra tired on the lunge OR you can give a him a little sedative. Sometimes, we ride or lunge them prior, and bring a little just in case - see how it goes. The last thing I want is a naughty greenie - possibly scaring himself, or hurting me. OR, even more annoying and rude to the people actually trying to show, riding around on a wild baby.

        But, in my experience, its rare, not common. Most of them are fine - make sure they are quiet, hand walk, get on and go.
        Dina
        www.threewishesfarm.com
        www.fairharbourfarm.com
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        • #5
          Originally posted by kellidahorsegirl View Post
          Honest question here, so I guess flame suit on? haha

          But is it common practice for people to ace their horses for riding and showing? This is the second thread I've seen just today about using ace to ride a horse.
          Keep in mind that the original ace thread WAS about ridding a rehab horse.
          "And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by toomanyponies View Post
            I believe it is 7 days, but cant quite remember - it might be 10.

            Dormoseden is only 48 hrs - more expensive but you give less.
            I think you're right about 7 days for Ace - so yes, if you give it in the morning, it's going to be "visible" in the afternoon.

            And actually, I recently checked the USEF rulebook re: dormosedan, because I needed to sedate my mare for something 4 days before a show, and it says 7 days for Dormo as well IIRC.

            Comment


            • #7
              I just can't see the reason behind it, maybe for a local show with a timid or child rider and a horse that can be a little "up" at horse shows.
              Sure bring some along if you absolutely need it but IMHO you should be able to get your horse to behave without it. Greenie or no greenie. We deal with a lot of babies and not once have we ever given them Ace before a show and you know what? The less of a deal we make of anything, the better they are.
              This is just my opinion though and everyone does things differently.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Fluffie View Post
                Keep in mind that the original ace thread WAS about ridding a rehab horse.
                Yes, I realized that now haha...and thats fine

                I do know someone who's mother aces her horse all the time for shows and just schooling...its like common practice/habit. So seeing all this today just made me want to question it a lil more.

                Toomanyponies:

                I 'see' the point you make...but I don't buy it. I don't mean that disrespectfully by ANY means either. I just think (and know by personal experience from bringing up young horses and showing quite a bit) that it is very possible to be prepared for a horse to act up or be naughty in a show environment. You do not have to drug the horse.

                My horses have been idiots a couple times just because something set them off. I remember everything I've learned and put my brain into action and work through the problem. If the problem becomes too bad, I load up, go home and try again another day.

                I'm afraid there's no other way to say what I'm thinking other than bluntly haha, but I just wonder that if a rider isn't quite capable of containing a naughty young horse at a show, then maybe they're not the right rider. I don't think its necessary to fix a problem with drugs, that is a training error.
                Kelli
                Horse Drawings!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by kellidahorsegirl View Post
                  Yes, I realized that now haha...and thats fine

                  I do know someone who's mother aces her horse all the time for shows and just schooling...its like common practice/habit. So seeing all this today just made me want to question it a lil more.

                  Toomanyponies:

                  I 'see' the point you make...but I don't buy it. I don't mean that disrespectfully by ANY means either. I just think (and know by personal experience from bringing up young horses and showing quite a bit) that it is very possible to be prepared for a horse to act up or be naughty in a show environment. You do not have to drug the horse.

                  My horses have been idiots a couple times just because something set them off. I remember everything I've learned and put my brain into action and work through the problem. If the problem becomes too bad, I load up, go home and try again another day.

                  I'm afraid there's no other way to say what I'm thinking other than bluntly haha, but I just wonder that if a rider isn't quite capable of containing a naughty young horse at a show, then maybe they're not the right rider. I don't think its necessary to fix a problem with drugs, that is a training error.
                  Completely agree with you....if you can't handle them then maybe you shouldn't be riding them?

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                  • #10
                    If your greenie is going to possibly hurt yourself or himself at a show, I think there are other issues which is kinda what Kellidahorsegirl said above. There are lots of training aids, exercsies, places you can haul to get your horse ready for shows without drugging them or possibly hurting yourself or others. Yes, if you want to go to a show you have to start some time. But what about hauling out for a group lesson first? Something more organized but slowly gets them use to "chaotic" shows.

                    I also think this is an ethical issue. How crappy is it to have an aced horse compete against me and place higher when my horse isn't drugged? That really is like a form of cheating to me.

                    Not starting a fight or anything, just saying, but I did see a lot of this when I was showing on the east coast and as you can tell, I don't like it It's almost like there are too many people out there afraid of their horses

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                    • #11
                      To repeat myself - other than in rehab situations, or stall-bound to turnout again situations - I think its rare. I have used it once on a young horse out of the last, say, 20 I have done. He was definitely a special case, but he turned into a great horse, which may not have been the case if something had gone wrong the first time.

                      And lets be clear - there is no 'showing on sedatives'. Illegal.
                      Dina
                      www.threewishesfarm.com
                      www.fairharbourfarm.com
                      http://www.facebook.com/ThreeWishesFarm Like us on Facebook!!

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                      • #12
                        Also, if the unexpected happens at home or at a show, which horse is going to react better?

                        1) The one that has been trained to be level headed and not freak out or panic?

                        or

                        2) The horse that's always aced but not aced just this one time?

                        It can really come down to a serious safety issue.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by toomanyponies View Post
                          To repeat myself - other than in rehab situations, or stall-bound to turnout again situations - I think its rare. I have used it once on a young horse out of the last, say, 20 I have done. He was definitely a special case, but he turned into a great horse, which may not have been the case if something had gone wrong the first time.

                          And lets be clear - there is no 'showing on sedatives'. Illegal.
                          Not sure of a way to prove or tell if people do it or not without testing,,,but I hope you're right in thinking its rare!

                          And yeah, its illegal......but that doesn't always mean a darned thing. Just means some people try harder to not get caught......lovely world we live in huh?

                          For the sake of benefit of the doubt though, I hope its a very rare occurance and people take the time to work with their horses, because thats what its all about, right?
                          Kelli
                          Horse Drawings!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by toomanyponies View Post

                            And lets be clear - there is no 'showing on sedatives'. Illegal.
                            It happens way more than you would think even though it is illegal, unfortunately. It's not rare at all.
                            No one is saying it's not ok to do so when a horse is being brought out of rehab, but to show your horse under the influence of a tranq. is not acceptable, hence why, like you said, it's illegal.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If you feel the need to give some ACE to help your horse acclimatize to the show, then why don't you just take her, hand graze her or hack her a little on the grounds.

                              It's not a problem to give her a bit of ACE if you don't show her.

                              Actually, the first time I take a horse to a show, it's more of a look-see event for them rather than a competition.

                              I do find it interesting how anti-ACE everyone on this board proclaims to be . . . when several vets have told me that even they can't believe all of the things they see riders do to keep their horses calm at shows . I no longer show and I never gave my horses any drugs when I did. So I'm just going by hearsay, but it does seem to be fairly common.
                              Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                              EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by jse View Post
                                Completely agree with you....if you can't handle them then maybe you shouldn't be riding them?
                                I agree as well for the most part. But lets face it.. not all horses are the same. I don't see an issue using ace/atravet to take a greenie to their first show if they are high strung horses. Usually (keyword) first shows are schooling shows that do not test for drugs anyways and are usually also crowded with green kids and green horses. Things can get dangerous fast IMO.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  ace is your friend....

                                  when you are rehabbing a horse, not when you are showing.

                                  When good ole Twister is off stall rest and ready for the first walk around the yard, ace makes him a little less true to his name...

                                  As for giving Twister ace before a show to calm him down... I say give Twister a new name and learn how to ride better. Oops was that too blunt?

                                  And it takes about 7 days for Ace not to test.
                                  Last edited by faluut42; Dec. 4, 2009, 02:56 PM.
                                  "Let the fence be the bit." - Phillip Dutton

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                                  • #18
                                    I speak from ignorance

                                    I have never given Ace with the expectation of the drug+experience teaching a horse to manage it better next time sans pharmaceutical help.

                                    I have used that bit of chemical leverage for "just getting the job done"-- usually clipping. What I see there is that the horse will still make a bad decision (like taking aim for your head with a hoof) but he won't tell you first. To me, this means he's still worried and plotting beneath that calm, drugged exterior.

                                    I would also use Ace to get a hand-walking job done for a rehabbing horse. The stakes are too high to allow him to make a mistake, and this is not a time to have a physically-taxing training conversation. I don't ever want to swing a leg over a drugged one since I'm not sure about the mind underneath.

                                    This makes me wonder if "first visit to a show on Ace" has the mental affects you teachers out there want. Seriously-- I'm asking a question about training horses, not doubting or bashing the whole technique.

                                    Acing to make a horse more manageable at a show seems to me like "getting a job done"-- as in people are unable or unwilling to wait out the whacky things a scared baby might do while figuring it out.

                                    In an ideal world, we'd let them do that (and have training techniques for helping them realize that calm and thinking is better), and we'd give the hot/stupid ones enough time.

                                    If, after shows-n-shows used to teach the experience doesn't work, the horse needs a new job. This is because he will always make you wish you could slip him a little illegal something. Thankfully, the vast majority of horses out there can be taught to put up with all kinds of chaotic crap.
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by kitsunegari View Post
                                      I agree as well for the most part. But lets face it.. not all horses are the same. I don't see an issue using ace/atravet to take a greenie to their first show if they are high strung horses. Usually (keyword) first shows are schooling shows that do not test for drugs anyways and are usually also crowded with green kids and green horses. Things can get dangerous fast IMO.
                                      IMHO, whether or not a show tests for drugs, it is still cheating to compete on a sedated animal. Give the horse Ace if you want. Take it to a show on Ace if you want. Just don't take it in any classes until you can do so without sedation.
                                      Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                      Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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                                      • #20
                                        With some OTTBs, I will give them a nip before we leave the farm. We go to the show, hang out for the day, hack around, then load up and head home. They can really light up at the sound of the PA system. The scrum near the in gate can set some off, too. Maybe all those horses standing around with people at their heads brings back starting gate. Once they see it's not racing, they're okay. That's when we try to get into the ring au naturale, never before. Better safe than sorry, you know.

                                        I work hard, my horses work hard-it's just not fair to compete with someone taking a short cut, or hiding an unsuitable horse with drugs. I know it's "just a schooling show", but for some of us that's all we can ever afford to do. And, mvp, I think they learn on ace. We are talking no more than 1 cc, here.

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