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Question about ACE

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  • Question about ACE

    My 5 1/2 year old TB is coming back to work after 3 weeks of stall rest. It goes without saying he is a bit of a wild man.

    Yesterday and today I gave him 1 3/4 cc's of ace in the muscle before I rode. It did not made one bit of difference either day.

    Today I waited an hour to be sure it kicked in. Then I lunged him because I could still feel the 'explosion' coming. After that, I was able to ride him for about 5 minutes before he bucked. It wasn't a nasty 'I don't want you on me' buck but more of a playful, 'I'm having fun' buck". But a buck is a buck and although I didn't bite the dirt today, I'd like to not have to worry about that tomorrow! He is a very good boy and this is not his normal behavior.

    Administering the ACE via IV is not an option (because I don't know how to do it and neither does our groom). A barn buddy suggested squirting the ACE directly into his mouth. Anyone have experience with this?

    Also, this is ACE that I recieved from the vet less than 2 years ago and it lives in our fridge. I am guessing it is still fresh??


  • #2
    My horse when I first got him was a super hot OTTB, he had torn suspensory ligament and my trainer administered ACE intravenously the first ride and it was good. The second ride she told me to squirt it in his mouth. I did and nothing happened. I have since never again administered it via mouth because I don't think it works. Though in the last several years I haven't had to administer it at all on my horse *knocks on wood*
    If only horses would use their athletic powers for good instead of evil. ~ MHM


    • #3
      You just didn't give him enough. Tell your vet what happened, she'll tell you how much more to give, and how long to wait before you ride. I assume you aren't gonna do anything more than walk in an arena with good footing, and you need to control the type and amount of moving around he will do.


      • #4
        It won't work as well in the mouth as in the muscle. Give him more and wait at least a half hour before you get on. Make sure that half hour he is chilling in his stall. If you are fussing with him it won't kick in. That said, if they're that fresh they will still want to play, even sedated. They're just easier to control when they do. I don't know where you are in your rehab, but if you are able to work him then put him right to work when you get on, and don't give him time to think about acting stupid.


        • #5
          I'm in a similar situation and have been giving 2-3 ccs orally and it's been working great.


          • #6
            Ace is a good drug to practice hitting the jugular with, it may be your opportunity to gain some experience and a new skill. Learn where the jugular vein is, and where the carotid artery is (you need to avoid this), and how to hit the one you want. If you miss and inject outside the vein, it doesn't matter with Ace like it does with some other drugs (esp bute).

            Giving the injectable drug orally requires that you give a LOT more than you would if you injected it. Oral powder doses are much higher in the active compound than the injected liquid. And with oral route, it takes a lot longer to take effect than any injected route.


            • #7
              Definatly didn't give him enough. 3/4 is barely a cocktail haha. My horse has been on stall rest since July and I am starting to walk trot under saddle now. The first time I got back on him he got 2 1/2 cc's! Of course he is 17h and a pretty big boy. My trainer/vet taught me how to give it to him in the muscle and he is down to 1 1/2 cc's now and will be down to 1 for the next few days if I get to ride him and the rain holds off.
              There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the
              inside of a man.

              -Sir Winston Churchill


              • #8
                Give up to 6 cc in the muscle or in the vein every 3 hours is the max. Giving orally isn't going to do much and certainly not at that dosage.
                "ronnie was the gifted one, victor was the brilliant intellect, and i [GM], well, i am the plodder."


                • #9
                  As posted by CBoylen, giving ACE orally isn't as effective as giving it IM.

                  She also correctly pointed out that ACE won't work if your horse is already worked up (ask me how I know!). You need to give it to them before they get excited.

                  I'd talk to your vet about what the correct dosage would be 1 3/4 cc is probably not enough.

                  In my experience, if your horse really is that fresh, the ACE will take the edge off but will not make your horse completely placid and tranquil. I've used ACE to get my TB gelding get over separation anxiety when leaving him alone in his paddock and I've seen him get plenty worked up after receiving 2 cc IM.
                  Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                  EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.


                  • #10
                    I've had very good luck giving it IM - it takes about half an hour, but I personally haven't seen very much difference between doing that and giving it IV. Of course, as someone else said, I think the real issue is that you're not giving enough.


                    • #11
                      you could also try Ace pills, dissolved in water and given orally. i've had good luck with that, bringing back some of the nuttier ones. but remember, it won't make them behave as they usually would, it just takes the edge off. still expect some misbehavior, especially if they're feeling good.
                      Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch


                      • #12
                        Wow! I can't believe how much Ace you guys are giving your horses! I do 1/2cc and our horses are delightful little angels. I do 2cc for bad loaders, clippers, shoers, etc and they are very out of it.

                        If you do IM, it takes at least 30 minutes to take effect. I recommend doing it long before you tack up.

                        I would certainly practice IV. Wet the crease in the neck down so you can see it easily. Place your thumb midway on the neck in the jugular crease until you see the vein pop up. Insert needle bevel down, about a 150degree angle going upwards. Aspirate. If you see blood, you are in, if not, you may have to fish for it a little bit.


                        • #13
                          I never use ace for clipping, not a great idea and they sweat on ace which is bad for clippers. That and most horses can still walk trot canter and buck your ass off so ace is a NO BUENO for clipping IMO

                          I prefer for rehabs (who may re injure themselves or my staff and I) to get dorm and ace. Works better and you can use less ace. YOU can give Dorm IM so no worries about IV shots. WE do not indiscriminately drug either, as soon as the horse shows some signs of growing a brain in rehab process we taper right off and MOST (75%) allow us to do the first 3 weeks of rehab when you just WALK with NO DRUGS, it is the dreaded trot on straight lines and having to walk for corners when the danger starts!

                          Speak with your vet as you will need to get the DORM from him. MAKE SURE it is always you who draws up the dorm, you must be precise and can mix it in same syringe as the ace
                          To be successful, you have to have your heart in your business, and your business in your heart


                          • #14
                            I would certainly practice IV. Wet the crease in the neck down so you can see it easily. Place your thumb midway on the neck in the jugular crease until you see the vein pop up. Insert needle bevel down, about a 150degree angle going upwards. Aspirate. If you see blood, you are in, if not, you may have to fish for it a little bit."

                            You can also do what I suggest for my clients which is just stick needle in by itself, vein blood trickles or just forms a bubble of blood at hub of needle, you hit the artery you will have a fountain. I suggest this method while you are learning as when injecting thick materials like Legend it is not super obvious if you have hit a artery with Legend in the syringe.. as it is soooo thick. Now with ace and drugs like them it is easier to see color of blood and visually see difference
                            To be successful, you have to have your heart in your business, and your business in your heart


                            • #15
                              dorm isn't my recommendation for rehab or long term usage because it slows down the guts and increases risk of colic. Ace is much safer. Or reserpine.
                              "ronnie was the gifted one, victor was the brilliant intellect, and i [GM], well, i am the plodder."


                              • #16
                                I use ace orally and it works fine - gave a horse 2cc the other week and he was drunk as a monkey. Have backed off to 1cc and put it on his feed and it works fine.

                                The biggest thing with ace is time and patience - give it at least 30 mins to work and don't start doing anything, grooming, tacking, hooking up the trailer, etc., that will give your horse a clue something is getting ready to happen that they should be worried about. They're not stupid - if you are changing blankets to their turnout sheets they know its time to go out.

                                I give the ace, throw them a flake of hay and leave for 30 mins - peace and quiet - when I get back they are chilled and ready to hang out!


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by alteringwego View Post
                                  dorm isn't my recommendation for rehab or long term usage because it slows down the guts and increases risk of colic. Ace is much safer. Or reserpine.
                                  There are also some indications that reserpine slows the gut - ace is much safer, just a bit trickier to use in some situations.


                                  • #18
                                    There is also no hard and fast amount to give. Each horse metabolizes it differently. You'll have to find the right amount for your horse. In general, 2+ IM will get the desired effect (meaning start at minimum of 2cc). If you give it by mouth, you will need to give more and wait longer.


                                    • #19
                                      Nothing to add except that my vet says that some that don't respond appropriately to the injectable ace given orally will respond better to the ace tablets for some reason.
                                      The Evil Chem Prof


                                      • #20
                                        Okay, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, because I might be, but isn't it dangerous to use Ace in male horses? I seem to remember something about penile paralysis being a potential side effect...
                                        "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                        -George Morris