• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

For you history buffs or those who have been in the industry

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • For you history buffs or those who have been in the industry

    I am wondering what everyone's thoughts are about how foxhunting has become the Hunter division in horse shows. I mean, it's not a discipline found commonly outside of the US... what gave it it's start? What changes have happened over the years?

  • #2
    (there are hunters in the UK) When everyone was foxhunting and shows were not too much in existance, one guy said to another, "ya know, my horse is a better jumper and smoother ride than yours". His buddy said "no. mine is better" So they decided to have their friend watch them next they were out hunting and for him to judge which horse was best. Friend may or not have made a choice that day but probably said that he could do a far better job of judging if he could really see the horses, so lets build some jumps in a big field and I can stand in the middle and watch and get a good view.
    Outside courses were born and more people wanted to compare their horses. The horses are still judged on their jumping ability and smoothness of ride but they would have a hard time keeping up with hounds nowadays! Up into the60's, many show hunters also foxhunted.

    Comment


    • #3
      I remember that there were hunter classes at the GMHA horse shows in So. Woodstock, Vt in the late 50s, but they were much more like the sorts of things you might actually find out hunting, like vertical 3 rail post and rails, stone walls with log riders on top, coops, that sort of thing.

      My guess is that show hunters did come straight out of foxhunting, due to people`s competitive nature, as the last poster said, "My horse is a better jumper than your horse!"

      Then, over the years, show hunters got further and further away from its historical roots, just as 3-day eventing now has very little to do with its cavalry roots.

      It`s just a natural evolution for a sport to start out as an offshoot of something else, and then become its "own thing".
      http://www.tamarackhill.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by denny View Post
        I remember that there were hunter classes at the GMHA horse shows in So. Woodstock, Vt in the late 50s, but they were much more like the sorts of things you might actually find out hunting, like vertical 3 rail post and rails, stone walls with log riders on top, coops, that sort of thing.
        Older than that. And the split between the top show hunters and the field hunters was well underway almost from the beginning. Horses that were bold enough to perform well alone over decent sized fences were often a little "bold" to make nice actual hunters...

        The photos in the album below are from late '30's. I'm particularly impressed by the size and solidity of that first wall. (Those are the kinds of fences, along with the old Devon bank, that ought to be part of hunter derbies, but imagine the outcry! No knockdowns, no filler... ) As I recall, the two grey horses (ridden by my mother and Mike Plumb's mother) did not hunt.

        http://pets.webshots.com/album/105445237cuOjym
        madeline
        * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

        Comment


        • #5
          MANY MANY riding disciplines have gone this way. All start out to judge a horse's usefulness for one sport and evolve into the actual end product. Hunters, western pleasure, reining, and I will even lump modern dressage into that group. It's an evolution that that stems from the increased competition as each sport progresses.
          4..3..2..1...Have a nice ride!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by eventer80 View Post
            MANY MANY riding disciplines have gone this way. All start out to judge a horse's usefulness for one sport and evolve into the actual end product. Hunters, western pleasure, reining, and I will even lump modern dressage into that group. It's an evolution that that stems from the increased competition as each sport progresses.
            I would respectfully edit the highlighted line to say it stems from the increased number of people who want to be competitive as each sport "progresses".

            The lowest division in hunter shows as recently as the 1970s was a 3' division for horses. Then folks who really weren't mentally or physically ready to jump 3' wanted to show, and 2'6" divisions, then short & long stirrup, etc., etc., came into being. More participants, but the bar was quite literally set lower to accommodate them.

            I otherwise agree completely with eventer80's analysis.

            But to the original question:

            From Chrystine Jones Hogan's book, "Courses for Hunters"

            Originally posted by Chrystine Jones Hogan
            show ring hunter classes evolved from the nineteenth-century practice of fox hunt members gathering at a farm site to compare their mounts in informal competition . . .
            Hidden Echo Farm, Carlisle, PA -- home of JC palomino sire Canadian Kid (1990 - 2013) & AQHA sire Lark's Favorite, son of Rugged Lark.

            Comment


            • #7
              Madeline, Thanks for those pictures! Very cool to see.

              Comment


              • #8
                Madeline - thank you so much for sharing those beautiful photos. What a treat!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Did anyone else notice the CROWD watching along the rail in the last photo? Thats what we need more of in this sport!
                  Dina
                  www.threewishesfarm.com
                  www.fairharbourfarm.com
                  http://www.facebook.com/ThreeWishesFarm Like us on Facebook!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, fox hunting is not available to many in our huge country. Neither are herds of cattle to chase for western buffs. That does not mean riders cannot enjoy mastering the same skills and same type of horse.

                    Fox hunting also has been guilty of being elitist in some areas. Not all, of course. But one does not simply hitch up and turn up. It has suffered a bit in it's perception of being associated with Country Club membership-and some Hunts are exactly that, CC membership or member invitation (with approval) only.

                    And don't forget many really were not interested in chasing dogs and killing something. But it is fun to go jump around without the timers.

                    Long as I can recall, from the 60's, show Hunters saw hounds and a fox about as often as most western horses saw a cow.
                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Good point about the number of people. Also, let me add that I am not saying it is positive or negative progress, just a progression.
                      4..3..2..1...Have a nice ride!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by findeight View Post
                        Long as I can recall, from the 60's, show Hunters saw hounds and a fox about as often as most western horses saw a cow.
                        Your instructors didn't make you cross-train, way back in the day? Mine sure did. We were made to do Pony Club level eventing, take 'em to a local meet on Junior or Pony Club Day (as applicable), etc.... Sure there were specialists at the high end that never did anything else, but the bulk of horses absolutely crosstrained, at least in New England at the time, and from what I've heard, fairly true in Virginia as well.

                        As to when the hunters started - I've got trophies, ribbons, posters & appointments inherited from a great aunt who was doing sidesaddle hunters at Myopia Hunt Club shows in 1932. So the whole idea of showing your field hunter has been around for quite a while.
                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                          Your instructors didn't make you cross-train, way back in the day? Mine sure did. We were made to do Pony Club level eventing, take 'em to a local meet on Junior or Pony Club Day (as applicable), etc.... Sure there were specialists at the high end that never did anything else, but the bulk of horses absolutely crosstrained, at least in New England at the time, and from what I've heard, fairly true in Virginia as well.

                          As to when the hunters started - I've got trophies, ribbons, posters & appointments inherited from a great aunt who was doing sidesaddle hunters at Myopia Hunt Club shows in 1932. So the whole idea of showing your field hunter has been around for quite a while.
                          Yup - we didn't show in the winter - we hunted. Would have been in the 70's and 80's for me as a kid.
                          http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                          Originally Posted by JSwan
                          I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by findeight View Post
                            Well, fox hunting is not available to many in our huge country. Neither are herds of cattle to chase for western buffs.
                            Where I am from there are lots of both!!!


                            I agree that you should be able to show in the discpline you would like. I am not judging, I was just stating that most classes start out as an evaluation tool for other sports. That's all.
                            4..3..2..1...Have a nice ride!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I started riding and hunting in 1941.

                              As a kid, I showed in a few local shows, but decided that was not for me so I rode mostly in our local show.

                              In those days and up through the end of the 1950's, most show grounds had an outside course.

                              Hunter classes were fairly simple: Working hunters, confirmation hunters, ladies, light weight and heavy weight, Corinthian, teams of three, etc.

                              There also was a green division and my memory is not clear on that but I believe that they were 3' classes, in the ring since the outside courses were much bigger. I don't think I ever heard of such a thing as a 2'6" class in those days.

                              Hell, the kids on ponies jumped 3'6" and higher.

                              To show in a hunter class, the horse was supposed to have an endorsement from a master to the effect that it had hunted with that club. Many confirmation horses went out three or four times, hunted in the second or third field and went home before they got a scratch on them.

                              Many of the working hunters were real field horses shown by local riders. In working hunters, a big knee or a wire scar or wind galls did not eliminate a horse.

                              The program always said "To be ridden at a pace suitable to follow hounds" which in every day language meant that if you did not ride that outside course with your coat tails straight out behind you, you were not going to get a ribbon. More like a timber horse school.

                              Stone walls, 4' snake or post and rails were ordinary.

                              But back to the question, it was common even then for show hunters that never really hunted, only just enough to say they had.

                              CSSJR

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Thanks so much!

                                Thanks so much everyone! I am really learning a lot and I LOVED the old pics. I love looking at old pics to compare style and see what I can learn.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I'm not that old but I remember when classes were "under & over 15.2hh"

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Since a couple mentioned "cross training", I thought I would share my "cross training story".

                                    Growing up in a rural area in the early 80's, almost all the guys rode western. Actually, I was the only male "english" rider around. But I regularly showed at the local Saddle club horse show and happily competed against the girls and ladies. Of course I always wondered how I would do against the boys of arena racing and barrel racing (yes, boys barrel raced, though now it looks like only girls do it). So I entered my very "forward" Arabian/Thorobred cross in the barrel racing and arena race for 15 & under. And I won BOTH, but was not awarded ribbons or the $1.25 first place prize money, because it was deemed unsafe (after the fact) to race without a western saddle. Oh well. Later that day a couple of guys wanted a rematch, so we raced across a field 500 - 600 yards, just a dead sprint. And "Tat" left the others in the dust.

                                    Needless to say at our next hunter show I couldn't slow him down to save my life. So that was our first and last chance at "racing".

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I'm sure many of us still remember when hunter courses were "outside course" with jumps that today might look more like an eventing course.

                                      I can remember taking a horse to a show in the North Salem area and discovering that one of the jumps on the course was a ditch. The only thing that got us over that one was that there were ground bees there . . . luckily the horse jumped over the ditch when he got stung. He could have gone the other way .

                                      I still know people who foxhunt their show hunters. Heck, I know people who foxhunt their dressage horses. But that's increasingly rare. Many of the people who choose to ride "show ring" hunters are not as comfortable with the rough and tumble nature of hunting.
                                      Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                                      EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                                        Your instructors didn't make you cross-train, way back in the day?
                                        Nope. There was no quality hunt seat instruction outside a private club within about a 2 hour drive where I grew up on the west coast so I rode Western. No foxhunting either. No Pony Club (I was too old anyway by the time I had my own horse). We had trails up and down steep hills on fire roads-and cows.

                                        As an Adult, I lived almost 10 years in South Texas, same deal with more rocks...and more rattlesnakes.

                                        That was my point, it is not available in all areas of this big and varied country. But show arenas are.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X