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Great LA Times article on grooms' working conditions at Thermal

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sarabeth View Post
    And THEN, here is our mod, from the East Coast. She totally buys that our local, albeit large, birdcage liner newspaper reports that we treat grooms like animals. Hmm.... I give up. Erin, why don't you tell us how it's done here, we are obviously just a bunch of sadly clueless fools.
    I haven't been to Thermal, but I went to Indio three times, if I remember right. As well as WEF. And Devon, Upperville, Harrisburg, and HITS Ocala, Culpeper and Arizona. And A-circuit shows in Albuquerque, Seattle, Illinois, Texas, Pittsburgh, Raleigh, and more I've long since forgotten.

    If you'll notice, I have TWICE now stated that my impressions of those big A shows were as a horse person, but NOT a horse-show person. (I'm an eventer.) I fail to see where I've told anyone "how it should be done."

    But silly me, I thought it might perhaps be germaine to the discussion to mention the fact that I didn't come away from the A shows with the best of impressions, and that someone without horse knowledge would likely have a much worse impression. Sorry if it bothers you to hear that people outside the horse show world might not think it's all roses and sunshine, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
      I'm right. You're Wrong. This is part of the attitude that has the LA Times circulation dropping like a rock, even though the population in Socal is exploding.

      Who trusts the extreme right papers either? I can send you a national poll that says only 1/3 of the people believe what they read in newspapers is accurate.

      By the way, I hear the owners of your paper are gearing up for another round of staff cuts.
      Sorry, but the reason the circulation is dropping is because of the incredibly stupid management of the Chicago idiots -- but I am sure that isn't a discussion for this BB! But to warm your Wall Street-loving heart, the Zell bid looks very good and with the Geffen (bid up your shares now!!) purchase not far behind, we spit upon you.

      As for staff cuts, pray don't worry about me; I don't.

      Now ... may we PLEASE get back to the men who ... DIED?!?!?
      Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by JAGold View Post
        Erin: I understand and agree with the points that you are making on this thread. I'm not quite sure where you are going with the comparison to the coverage of David Rosenbaum's murder, though.
        My only point was that some deaths are "news," when others aren't.

        I wasn't really trying to draw a parallel between Thermal and Rosenbaum -- he was just an example of one local "newsworthy" murder (among many murders) -- but your parallel works!

        Comment


        • #64
          Fair 'nuff

          I worked with Rosenbaum's daughter for several years, so the mention of his name probably grabbed my attention more than it would have otherwise.

          And as for the LA Times article: I think it's completely valid to call into question the culture that created an attitude/atmosphere where employees sleeping in stalls or trailers is acceptable. As the discussion on the BB has shown, some people think it's acceptable and others think it's despicable, but for people who don't ride, I think the only way to form any understanding of what happened is to get a picture of the setting in which it occured. The LA Times article helps to do that. If you think it doesn't portray a balanced picture of horse shows, then by all means write a letter to the editor! (Personally, I was pleased that there were many quotes from grooms, not just from trainers or competitors.) --Jess

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
            than names and ages. Why did they choose to be grooms? Were they supporting families? Was it their choice to not stay in a motel room?
            huh? What difference does this make?

            Comment


            • #66
              disclaimers - My name is Peggy and I went to Thermal and used grooms. I am also an LA Times subscriber. I am so clueless about celebrities that I apparently complimented Michelle Pfeiffer (sp?) on her cute dogs without having any idea who she was.

              I like the fact that there were a number of grooms quoted in the article. Having a Spanish-speaking reported certainly helped with that as well as (probably) getting the photos that accompanied the article. I would have like more info/background on the men who died, but that wasn't the main thrust of this article, IMHO.

              Yes, there are many people who hire grooms that have never held the end of a lunge (longe?) line at 5 am, or made endless trips back and forth to the ring, or extracted what they hoped was the right bridle out of a tack trunk. But those of us who have are truly grateful. It's hard work, sometimes made harder by dealing with attitudes. I suspect that I am one of the better tippers (tho far from the most wealthy) b/c of my grooming experience.

              The LA Times was a better paper before it's Chicago-ization (or, more accurately, Tribun-ization). Nonetheless, there are still some darn good journalists working for it.
              The Evil Chem Prof

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
                It's really not clear whether these grooms were offered accommodations or were given money for them and chose to pocket it.
                look... I'm not sure how many people you employ... if any... but the bottom line is this... If I am employing somebody and it is damn cold outside... I do not tell them they can sleep in my trailer and show them how to hook up the gas generator that is going to supply power to the electric heater... I pay for a hotel room and I charge my rich and famous clients. They do not have an option. It is 20 degress at night and you are not sleeping in a horse trailer. What is so hard to get about this ?

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                • #68
                  Prima Donna Grooms

                  I'm not so sure that I agree wiyh your care of Grooms.

                  I groomed my way through horse showing in the '70's and the '80's.

                  Sometimes I slept on a cot; but most of the time I slept in my car with the window cracked open.

                  Nowadays, they have 'horse watch'. How do we know if they are doing a good job, or not ?

                  All of my barnwork was done before my trainer got there, and when he did, he would let me go back to his Hotel yo shower and get cleaned up.

                  Nobody put tack puts on our horses; colic was caught quickly; and nobody stoled any of our horses.

                  How is it that the chage has ocurred? A comoetive horse nowadays cost between $25.000,00, on up, ( $250,000.00 is nothing nowadays).

                  40,000 horses a year are stolen. Why have people become so trusting ?

                  I would sure keep up with my horse's insurance policy.

                  Grooms are there to be with your horses; not your Hotel.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
                    Is the article about what happened and who it affected or is it about some Hollywood "A-Listers" (who I would probably just walk by becuase I either would not recongize them or have no idea who they are) living high on the hog going to VIP brunches while hard working grooms are intentionally being mistreated by the same?
                    sorry.. but you have now pissed me off. and you clearly have no clue what the hell you are talking about... "intentionally being mistreated by the same" ... what in the hell are you talking about?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by littlierbigman View Post
                      I'm not so sure that I agree wiyh your care of Grooms.

                      I groomed my way through horse showing in the '70's and the '80's.

                      Sometimes I slept on a cot; but most of the time I slept in my car with the window cracked open.

                      Nowadays, they have 'horse watch'. How do we know if they are doing a good job, or not ?

                      All of my barnwork was done before my trainer got there, and when he did, he would let me go back to his Hotel yo shower and get cleaned up.

                      Nobody put tack puts on our horses; colic was caught quickly; and nobody stoled any of our horses.

                      How is it that the chage has ocurred? A comoetive horse nowadays cost between $25.000,00, on up, ( $250,000.00 is nothing nowadays).

                      40,000 horses a year are stolen. Why have people become so trusting ?

                      I would sure keep up with my horse's insurance policy.

                      Grooms are there to be with your horses; not your Hotel.
                      oh god...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
                        It's really not clear whether these grooms were offered accommodations or were given money for them and chose to pocket it.
                        Well... let's just pretend that the grooms declined on the offer of a bed and shower in lieu of pay... if you... as their BOSS ...Foireann ... knew it was going to 20 below... what sayeth you?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
                          A large number of kids are on this bulletin board.
                          Serious?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
                            The barn that hired the grooms came from Canada. Maybe they gave them the money for rooms? Maybe that is the custom in Canada?

                            Do you know this for a fact? "I do not tell them they can sleep in my trailer and show them how to hook up the gas generator that is going to supply power to the electric heater... "

                            I can't speak for what other barns do. The barn I stabled at provided rooms.
                            who gave them the generator? who gave them the heater? who gave them permission to sleep in the trailer? Sliding down a slippery slope on this one, FE...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Foireann Eireannach
                              I think I mentioned this several times, but the barn I was at provided rooms. And extra money for meals.
                              So... " the barn I was at provided rooms"... well... what if the barn you were at did not provide rooms?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Foireanne...

                                i don't give a crap about what the article says... it was 34 F when I was driving from my upscale , Boutique hotel at 6:00 am ... on the day in question... and it was windy. It was COLD. It was cold at 4 in the afternoon. let me ask you a dumb question... how many trainers do you think were sleeping in horse trailers? The clients pay for everything... what is the big deal with putting the grooms in a hotel?

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by littlierbigman View Post

                                  .

                                  Grooms are there to be with your horses; not your Hotel.
                                  Believe it or not I agree with this. And here's my issue. These deaths were not considered work related. That's a load of BS. The status quo of the job, which hasn't changed from the 60's/70's is that at a show it's a 24/7 thing way more than at home where you have more control over the schedule and security. You are ON CALL and expected to be underfoot at a moment's notice, hence the necessary close proximity.

                                  That is what really burns me, the article also says the men were seen drinking (that makes it OK to not investigate??) and the deaths were not considered work related (sorry, don't agree here).

                                  I still want to know
                                  A) Did the men know how to use a generator and who gave it to them?
                                  B) Were these men given the option of a hotel room?

                                  Beezer! YES!!

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Beezer View Post
                                    For anyone who has issues: DEAL.

                                    I am an editor with the L.A.Times. The reporter and the photographer were both at Thermal, and **I** pushed the story and **I** read it for accuracy and horsey details.

                                    You want to tell me that two men didn't die? You want to tell me that, when questioned, trainers didn't tell the reporter -- who has NEVER been to a horse show in his life but at least speaks Spanish, which **I** requested -- that it would cost $30,000 per horse for the six weeks to be there (c'mon! YOU do the math!!)? You want to tell me that the Hollywood elite and the political elite and the just exceptionally wealthy aren't at that show?!?!?

                                    You want to tell me that living conditions shouldn't be better for the people -- no matter what the nationality or ethnicity -- who look after our horses?!?!

                                    Didn't think so.

                                    The article pointed out that grooms are often given the option of staying in a motel and that they choose not to. Some were -- and are quoted -- as being fine with the "accommodations." But you know what? If the chicken ranch near me gets raided for crappy living conditions and if the park is routinely swept for people living in tents, then by DAMN, we should be looked at for expecting people to live in horse trailers in near-freezing temperatures and screw our cavalier attitude of, "oh, they are fine with it, they don't know any better."

                                    Smacks of Barbara Bush's "Oh, it's just like they're camping" crap after the Hurricane Katrina survivors were lodged in the Astrodome.

                                    You have an issue with the alleged liberal bias of the L.A. Times, go read a right-leaning paper. You have a problem with my being outraged over the preventable deaths -- did anyone ASK, in Spanish, if they knew how to operate the generator?? -- deal with me.
                                    I've been a groom. I show and take care of my own horses. I've also worked at the track. I'm white, US born, and much prefer sleeping in the gooseneck of a horse trailer to trekking back and forth to motels when trying to take care of horses. The fact is that the working hours involved in horse care frequently make it much more convenient and comfortable to sleep near the horses and shower on the grounds than to stay at a motel, and there are plenty of us who are passionate enough about the work to enjoy it thoroughly anyway. I've always considered myself fairly middle class, but I still find the "comfort" of motels so negligible that I would deeply resent being forced to patronize one because show grounds were being "swept" for people sleeping in cars, trucks, trailers, etc. To me, sleeping in my truck or trailer has, in fact, always felt "like camping," with the added comfort of being able to hear the horses nearby and know they are quiet and well. I would hate to see still more protectionist legislation passed which ends up costing most precisely those it aims to protect. There's a big difference between the people trapped in the Astrodome because of Katrina, and grooms offered a choice between motel rooms and horse trailers opting for the latter.

                                    The deaths of these grooms is tragic, but I definitely see it as a tragic accident, not anything resembling the result of an inherently abusive system. Lord knows that I've made enough mistakes with machines that it's a wonder I'm still alive at 61! If someone had offered me the novel luxury of a generator and heater some cold night when I was sleeping in my gooseneck at a show, I could easily see myself dying just as these grooms did-- but I doubt it would have been newsworthy because my death would not have fit in well with anyone's political/social agenda.

                                    As for the question of how many trainers sleep in trailers: I do in fact know a few BNT's who got their starts living out of vans. I would hate to see the day when people were no longer allowed to do this.

                                    This does not mean, however, that I am blind to social inequities, especially those between Americans and Latino immigrants, with whom I've worked and lived off and on since my teens. One of the most memorable statements I've heard on the subject came, in fact, from a Mexican housemate I had a few years ago. He said "in Mexico, we (his family and friends) had horses, too, but they were not beautiful like these because we could not afford to love them." We live in a rich country, one so rich that living conditions that seem appalling to us often seem luxurious to those who come from other parts of the world. It would be wonderful if the ever-widening gap between the poor and the obscenely rich could be reduced so everyone had a good chance at maintaining a reasonably healthy life, providing for their children, etc., but figuring out how to accomplish that is beyond my poor abilities, while I have serious concerns about the often unforeseen consequences of protectionist legislation mandating the conditions under which people in certain occupations should live.
                                    Last edited by fish; Mar. 12, 2007, 10:29 AM.
                                    http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

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                                    • #78
                                      how much do you think the average AShow CIRCUIT groom makes per year? Remember these guys get paid in cash... which means NO IRS.
                                      That's great- but what happens when one gets kicked? Or dislocates a shoulder? Or gets a back injury? There is no disability or health insurance- it's back to Mexico with whatever you saved up. For certain, it must be a decent job or they wouldn't do it, but don't be shocked when someone criticizes the illegal system that supports many of the big barns.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        I can understand from both sides, competitor and groom. Yes, grooms should have decent sleeping quarters, RV type with electric at a minimum, motels preferrably. No horse trailers digs, period. If I, as a competitor want to camp in mine, that's my decision and I'm fine with that.

                                        "Sarabeth... the average groom at Thermal is probably clearing more money per year than you are." Probably true, so a motel room should be no big deal, both for the trainer to provide and the groom to use. I would insist they use the room.

                                        "Jose Rodriguez, 39, a former bull rider and rodeo performer from Ejutla, works as a head groom. "I've been doing this for more than 10 years, and I never once had a motel room until recently," he said. "But back at home this work means I have a home, 300 acres and a happy wife and family." The bold is MY emphasis. Obviously, these are not dirt-poor people back in their home country which is why they continue to do the job under the present working conditions.
                                        "We don't ride the clock. We ride the horse." Reiner Klimke.
                                        http://community.webshots.com/user/arnikaelf

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Beezer View Post
                                          For anyone who has issues: DEAL.



                                          You want to tell me that two men didn't die? You want to tell me that, when questioned, trainers didn't tell the reporter -- who has NEVER been to a horse show in his life but at least speaks Spanish, which **I** requested -- that it would cost $30,000 per horse for the six weeks to be there (c'mon! YOU do the math!!)? You want to tell me that the Hollywood elite and the political elite and the just exceptionally wealthy aren't at that show?!?!?

                                          You want to tell me that living conditions shouldn't be better for the people -- no matter what the nationality or ethnicity -- who look after our horses?!?!

                                          You have a problem with my being outraged over the preventable deaths -- did anyone ASK, in Spanish, if they knew how to operate the generator?? -- deal with me.

                                          FLAME AWAY

                                          I am very perplexed by this entire article and what the true question of the human condition is all about, and it seems as if when we change the perspective of the underlying reason for the article, then opinions change as well.

                                          So we have two grooms that died from the mentioned cause: Fact.
                                          Also fact: This is the lifestyle these men chose.

                                          Illegal or not, I am not all about handouts and freebies in life. This condition sucked for these men and their families, however what stopped a group of grooms from getting a hotel together which could have drastically depleted the cost? A groom quoted in the article said that he sends his money back home to his family... this is money being drained out of our economy, and since its a "cash industry" taxes arent even being paid on it.

                                          This goes right along the lines of the threads that found the answer to a groom mistreating their horse or tack or not doing their job was to tip them bigger. No. A job is a job with a job description and expected actions. Tips are rewards, why reward bad behavior? I know we are not talking about tipping them, we are talking about the poor condition of grooms, but its the same general concept, you get paid for a job that is described and done. My boss doesnt ask me if i have food at home to eat when i leave from work, or even if i have a place to stay. Thats not her concern, she pays me for the job i do.

                                          I have sympathy for people down on their luck, people who unexpected lost jobs, or loved ones, hit hard times or financial/medical emergencies. We have social services in place to help those that are legally here during these times. I do not have sympathy in the case that someone has made a choice to plateau in their life at a certain point and expect that others with more should be giving them things because they have a hard life.

                                          My mom raised me and my brother alone, and frequently on food stamps or government aid. She is now unable to work at all and is terminally ill and is supplied with SSI. She is a case where she put in her time as a worker, and unfortunately is no longer able to care for herself and as pulling from the social services she paid taxes into to fund. That is deserving. Guess what, instead of crying "poor me" i decided to do everything in my power to live above what class my family has been stuck in. I had no financial support, only my determination. I am putting myself through college, holding down a full time job and making something of myself rather than settling into a life of poverty, and am able to help my mom because of it.

                                          People who are here illegally have no right to demand anything (i know this is not what ther article was saying, they arent demanding anything in that article) But it seems as though the article is saying that handouts should be given... I am sitting here thinking... if i made $150/day untaxed PLUS free food and board... i would be doing pretty sweet! If that were the case, a groom would be better off than i would be! If grooms were white or black or asian or whatever... i would still say, this is where you chose to stop your upward mobility in life. You chose not to finish/go to school, or attempt to make yourself better. So what if its hard... its hard for me, and i am doing it. Grooms 100% should be treated with RESPECT regardless of legal/non-legal status, color, creed or religion, but handouts are another story. I remember watching a new report on people on government assistance. I gentleman and his family who were on food stamps and sec 8 and financial assistance had no job... for 8 months. The new station found him a job at mcdonalds making $8.00/hr. ... and he would take it. His relative quote was that the job wasnt good enough for him and he wouldnt work there. The attempted to get him into community college and he said he didnt want to waste him day sitting in a class room ...followed by some derogatory statements about the race of the people he would be sitting with all day.

                                          What happened was sad indeed. But i dont think it is the responsibility of the riders/owners to hand out because they may or may not be in a better financial position. Those people work to live whatever lifestyle they live, and are no more or less deserving of their income. My boyfriend makes more than twice what i make, and many times i find myself jealous of how much additional disposable income he has, or that when he pays half of rent, it leaves him with more excess than when i pay half of rent. But he earns that money and its not right for me to ask him to pay more because he makes more. Unfortunately we do not live in the life portrayed in Utopia, we are not all equal and have a communal wealth and everything we need. There is indeed a growing gap between the rich and poor, and i am by no means at the top of it. But we get the cards we are dealt and should learn to play them as best we can.
                                          ~*PVC JUMPER*~
                                          Dreams are meant to come true, not free...
                                          "Everything I do, I do out of fear of being mediocre."

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