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Great LA Times article on grooms' working conditions at Thermal

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  • Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter View Post
    Think about it -- how often does an exhibitor say hello to someone passing by who's not part of "their crowd?" How often is there a volunteer or staffer or even a simple handout to explain to specators what they're seeing? Do any of the BN barns have brochures? Greeters? Someone to explain things? Is there an area where neophytes can see a real live horsie (maybe a retiree, or rescue representative) and get info?
    Just FYI everyone...the Arabian shows DO have a program set up for spectators. There's in an info booth where the kids and families get free giveaways (many supplied by local Arabian barns) and info about the breed and showing. Also available is an escorted tour into the barn area to meet and pet retired Arabians. Trainers who want the general public to stop by their barns at the show and ask questions are given a special sign welcoming the visitors. If a trainer doesn't want to participate, no problem - the sign lets the tour escorts know which barns they can stop at. The escort then takes the specators by the show rings and explains the classes, and the judging.

    The program is advertised in advance by press releases with the show dates. Schools and clubs and families all come by, or any adult that is at the show. This program was started 3 years ago in San Diego at a large regional show by an Arabian exhibitor who wanted to find a way to attract more of the general public to their shows.

    The program has been such a success, that the woman who started it was asked to be on the Arabian Horse Association Marketing Committee (she accepted) and take the program national. And now it is.

    So, it can be done, and IS being done. No I don't show Arabians, but I've been to the shows where this program is in place, and it's very popular.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by xegeba View Post
      oh my.
      It's been my experience that people with Trakehner's lack of compassion and full helping of hatefulness end up with the appropriate levels of karma knocking at their door. I have faith.

      "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

      Comment


      • Originally posted by trilogy View Post
        Here's what dont get. If I were to pick up and leave my home, go to another city and start soliciting myself as avaible to groom I would not exoect to be provided housing unless it had been arranged before my arrivale. or it was agreed upon as part of my wage
        I'll 'splain it to you... the new guys trying to break in... come to Indio hoping that barns might need a new guy. THESE are the guys that are willing to do just about anything to A) eat B) make a name for themselves... hence... they are willing to sleep in horse trailers. Established grooms know exactly who they are working for... and I can assure you... that none of them are sleeping in horse trailers.

        Comment


        • Is it at all relevant that it wasn't "sleeping in horse trailers" that killed these guys, but sleeping with an inadequately ventilated generator set up? Is this really grounds for legislating "no sleeping in vehicles" as some of you have suggested?

          I'm still PO'ed at the idea that I could be forced into paying for motel rooms in order to show when sleeping in my goose neck has been such an easy--and relatively comfortable-- way of keeping it affordable for me.

          As for the social inequities pointed out in the article, it seems to me that those which exist at the horse shows are just another manifestation of the the fact that we live in a world which values/pays most to CEO's and others who can get the most labor/"productivity" out of a work force for the lowest price. Maybe that would change if consumers of everything from T-shirts to stocks didn't make price the primary factor when making their shopping decisions, but I don't see that happening soon. Apparently people would rather deal with "customer service" personnel, scientists, engineers, etc. who aren't even fluent in their language and live in time zones all over the world than pay a little extra.
          http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

          Comment


          • At the top of the article, the author mentions that laws protect racetrack workers. Are they kidding? Poor conditions for them generated an award-winning photo-journalism article a while ago.
            Who rides the tiger cannot dismount

            Comment


            • I e-mailed the author, he was refering to laws that protect racetrack workers in California. Never having been to a racetrack in CA, I can't make a useful comment about racetrack worker's living/working conditions.
              Who rides the tiger cannot dismount

              Comment


              • #Coreene

                And thank God it's not! I like my beer as much as anybody else! However it would never occur to me to drink even one drink if I considered myself to be on the clock, and that was the point I was trying to make!

                These guys might just have had a couple of beers, which wouldn't impair their ability to take themselves to bed the same way as if they hadn't. If the California Department of... had taken action, then they would have just plain been drunk on the job and I'm sure nobody wants to have them remembered that way!

                I still consider it to be just a tragic accident that unfortunately happens to a lot of people all over the US every year and if this in any way raises awareness then that's a good thing!
                Timothy, stop lurking

                Comment


                • Now that Thermal is wrapped up, competitors and barns are making their way back home. Old friends meet and get to talking. This is what I was told from an individual who claims to have been very close to the situation:

                  - These guys were not breaking into the ranks as grooms
                  - They were what is referred to as the 'mafia' and hired under pressing circumstances
                  - As such, their weekly rate runs around the $1,800 mark
                  - They choose to sleep in the trailers to be near their friends

                  Truth? Fiction? Either way, it was an eye opening perspective, that is for sure.

                  Comment


                  • Of course the irony of believing the scribblings of a random stranger on the internet who is not beholden to any ombudsmen or other controlling factor, is entirely lost on you?

                    I'm sorry, but that is giggle worthy. I'm not saying that you are right, wrong or just exceptionally fond of gin, I'm just saying that you, whoever "you" are, is in no way subject to anything more limiting in what you write other than that which a a keyboard allows. If your "K" key is broke, that's it for "k"s - beginning and end of the editing process. You don't have an editor, an editorial board, an ombudsmen or anything that might be remotely accountable for any reasonably factual based reporting. So setting yourself up as a more authoritative source is, well, funny.

                    As for 66%, while I have seen much in the media that could stand improvement (although in my opinion making news a profit center and dancing to the Wall Street tune of ever increasing growh is NOT in the public interest), I wonder if that 66% is a subset of the 80% that believed Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11? Because that would be a telling stat...
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by unrequited View Post
                      Now that Thermal is wrapped up, competitors and barns are making their way back home. Old friends meet and get to talking. This is what I was told from an individual who claims to have been very close to the situation:


                      - They were what is referred to as the 'mafia' and hired under pressing circumstances

                      Could you re-word this for me?

                      Comment


                      • ewwwwwwwwwwwe crepola!

                        Originally posted by unrequited View Post
                        Now that Thermal is wrapped up, competitors and barns are making their way back home. Old friends meet and get to talking. This is what I was told from an individual who claims to have been very close to the situation:

                        - These guys were not breaking into the ranks as grooms
                        - They were what is referred to as the 'mafia' and hired under pressing circumstances
                        - As such, their weekly rate runs around the $1,800 mark
                        - They choose to sleep in the trailers to be near their friends

                        Truth? Fiction? Either way, it was an eye opening perspective, that is for sure.
                        .....what a crock!

                        How and who is that person "very close to the situation" is I may ask?? Making those kind of assertations requires some validity..just where did they fit into the situation????
                        [url]http://www.horseshowbiz.com
                        [url]http://www.ijumpsports.com

                        Comment


                        • Drink More Kool-aid

                          Giggle worthy? He told me that no one directly involved would tell him anything. So how is he an authoritative source?

                          "You don't have an editor or editorial board." SO WHAT? Do mean like the ones Jayson Blair had?

                          I'm sure you know everyone who was at Thermal and know exactly what did and didn't happen and you have ridden at all the barns on the west coast. Based on all your previous 17,000 posts, you claim to know everything about everything and are always right. I'm sure that you know everything about the LA Times.

                          You claim to know everything about what everyone does and says in California, but you actually live in Georgia. That's not giggle worthy, that's pathetic.

                          ------------------------
                          Drink More Kool-aid - Apparently You Already Have
                          Renewyourbrain.com - It needs it.
                          Last edited by Foireann Eireannach; Mar. 16, 2007, 02:29 AM. Reason: It's not worth responding to a know-it-all.

                          Comment


                          • No I don't claim to know everything, nor did I say reporting was 100% to be believed. But if you contend we should have trouble believing a newspaper with some form of fact checking and editing, why should your random ramblings on the internet be considered any more well sourced?

                            As for living in Georgia being pathetic? It's true. We accept our fate. We embrace it. We are even planning on putting it on our license plates. We will probably misspell "pathetic" though, so don't be surprised.
                            Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by xegeba View Post
                              Could you re-word this for me?
                              I was one of the rare white girls working as a full time professional groom when I first started out. The Mexican Mafia is what some of the trainers refer to as the groups of guys who band together to demand things like a raise (thats called a Mexican Hold Up when they do that) and such, and if they don' get what they want they all, as a group quit and leave, leaving barns full of training horses with 1 or 2 people to care for all of them for a few weeks until new help can be found.

                              On some levels I have some sympathy here, but on other levels absolutley none. As a legal American I was always paid minimum wage and taxes were taken out when I was grooming. The illegal Mexicans were paid cash, and through their "system" were always paid more than me, sometimes twice as much as me, in cash, no taxes taken out. I had to pay rent on an apartment and own a car and pay for car insurance as none of my employers ever had room for a white girl to live on the property, but the Mexican help was always living rent free in housing on site. That is not fair to those who are here legally and paying their taxes. We need the guest worker program that has been proposed so that those who want to come work here are doing so in a documented manner and are on an equal footing with American workers.

                              Comment


                              • The Mexican Mafia is what some of the trainers refer to as the groups of guys who band together to demand things like a raise (thats called a Mexican Hold Up when they do that) and such, and if they don' get what they want they all, as a group quit and leave, leaving barns full of training horses with 1 or 2 people to care for all of them for a few weeks until new help can be found.
                                Actually, that sounds like a really smart thing to do- very capitalistic on their part. People who are well treated don't tend to pull things like that. My co-worker and I would NEVER pull that- hence, we are well treated and paid fairly. But you know what, if my employer cut my wages, forgot to pay me or underpaid me, I'd sure consider it. Actually if more people did that, they'd get better wages and treatment- WalMart and Mc D's comes to mind. It's a good way to get what you deserve without government regulations. It isn't fun when "the underclass" gets the upperhand, is it?

                                DMK, I'm suprised you have internet access in GEORGIA, I though that pathetic state still relied on the pony express and movable type.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by magnolia73 View Post
                                  Actually, that sounds like a really smart thing to do- very capitalistic on their part. People who are well treated don't tend to pull things like that. My co-worker and I would NEVER pull that- hence, we are well treated and paid fairly. But you know what, if my employer cut my wages, forgot to pay me or underpaid me, I'd sure consider it. Actually if more people did that, they'd get better wages and treatment- WalMart and Mc D's comes to mind. It's a good way to get what you deserve without government regulations. It isn't fun when "the underclass" gets the upperhand, is it?
                                  I worked for the same employers. They were paid on time as was I, and twice as much as me in some cases, and they still pulled that crap. I worked where I did in the beginning for the wages I got because I loved the horses and the people I was working for were excellant mentors. I srated out working at the bottom as I was a below the poverty line white American kid (my dad's worked the same blue collar job since 1978, how much more underclass do you want)- which meant that no way no how was I going to be able to afford college, it was going to have to be all on the job experience for me. To them it was just a job and if Juan's brother Julio heard of a better paying job 3 states away they would pack up in the middle fo the night and leave, leaving 60 hores in the care of 1 or 2 people the next day- no sense of duty to their job which entailed caring for LIVING ANIMALS. Call me old fashioned, but I staunchly believe if you take a job as a groom you live by a code of THE HORSES ALWAYS COME FIRST.

                                  Comment


                                  • But for probably most of them, it is a job. A means to make money. Some of them might view the horses as nothing special - and probably know that you will be there to take up the slack. I can't imagine that their walking off affects these top dollar horses - I'm sure they still get fed, grained, mucked and groomed by someone. If a barn wants top quality grooms who really care, they need to be willing to have a standard that attracts someone like you. If you want a nice, educated, horse crazy legal citizen who will work for you for a long time, you should pay decently, offer some benefits and treat them well.

                                    It happens all the time in other industries- people just stop showing up. It's not worth it to them. I'm sure some of these guys feel about horses the same way the guy giving you your food at McDonald's feels about a burger.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by magnolia73 View Post
                                      But for probably most of them, it is a job. A means to make money. Some of them might view the horses as nothing special - and probably know that you will be there to take up the slack. I can't imagine that their walking off affects these top dollar horses - I'm sure they still get fed, grained, mucked and groomed by someone. If a barn wants top quality grooms who really care, they need to be willing to have a standard that attracts someone like you. If you want a nice, educated, horse crazy legal citizen who will work for you for a long time, you should pay decently, offer some benefits and treat them well.
                                      Yes, but the whole "Mexican Mafia" situtaion they create will stretch across an entire region and in effect they become a union that does not negotiate, either you pay in cash the highest rate they were able to extort from one of the barns in a 500 mile radius or you will go weeks without being able to find decent help. And the person who was feeding those horses while all of this was going on was me, and at other barns the few other legal American workers. We need the guest worker program, everyone who wants to work here needs to be here legally and on EQUAL footing.

                                      Comment


                                      • I've stayed out this fray until now, but this is my personal observation from being at the bigger shows and having some time on my hands:

                                        1) The grooms make a very good salary, paid in cash. They are very capitalistic. The trainers rely heavily on them and have to treat them well or they will up and leave. A bigger barn will have one or more experienced guys that speak english and then one or more greener guy. They require decent housing, one day off a week, payment on time, respectful treatment. Certain barns are known for being awful to work for and certain ones are known for being good to work for. Call it the Mexican mafia if you will- the "good" barns are always flush with good workers, the "bad" barns struggle as there are a few key guys that are in the know and provide the workers like a placement agency.

                                        2) The grooms prefer to stay on the show grounds in campers with their buddies over being in a hotel. They make tons of money at the show between their salary and tips. They have an active social life on the side.

                                        3) Most of the grooms are illegal. Legal Americans are not interested in making $100 a day plus tips when it requires 10-12 hour days, stall cleaning, horse bathing, unbraiding, tack cleaning, hall raking, etc. You would think that youngsters wishing to break into the horse business would fill the ranks of grooms (like myself when I was younger) but that is not the case.

                                        Just some observations.
                                        http://patchworkfarmga.com

                                        Comment


                                        • There's nothing wrong with living in Georgia.

                                          Claiming to be an expert of the goings on in California while living on the other side of the country is. How many local barns in your area jsut got back from Thermal? All of the large show barns in my area went. I rode years ago with most of the BNTs in the area when they were just starting out. After years of being away from riding, I was amazed at how many of the people at my old barn were now recognized trainers, several of them having since riden in the Olympics.

                                          As far as fact checking, the author admitted not getting any information about the actual incident from any of the parties involved, admitted to talking to people who weren't even on the show grounds during the week when it happened, and admitted that the amount of celebrities totalled 3 families out of how many who attended (1,000+?). He also has no idea how many software executives were there in excess of one, nor what percentage of people eat at VIP tents. This information is based on his e-mail to me.

                                          What facts are you talking about? The names and ages of the victims? The name of the investigating agency? Those are the only "facts" in the article and they could be obtained from the sheriff's office.

                                          The only facts I presented in this thread were regarding the steep declines in readership of the San Francisco Chronicle and the LA Times (both of which I have personal knowledge of their misreporting of facts that are a matter of public record) [The circulation figures I quoted were from the Audit Bureau of Circulations - the nationally recongized source for circulation numbers] and the "believeability" numbers were from a Wall Street Journal poll in addition to two other national polls (Gallup and Field, I believe).

                                          For those who claim that there is a total separation between advertising and jouranlistic functions, refer back to 1999 when the LA Times was caught in a huge scandal regarding this very matter in their dealings with the Staples Center. This was widely reported. The LA Times has never recovered from that scandal and a procession of editors and publishers since. It is not the LA Times of the 60's and 70's (when it was highly respected).

                                          The Jayson Blair scandal (of the New York Times) was widely reported.

                                          The San Francisco Chronicle has been in so many scandals regarding its reporting, there are too many to document here.

                                          My 'ramblings' are based on talking to people who were there and talking to the author of the article. With the exception of the facts I stated above, I am only presenting my opinion. I never passed judgement or blame regarding the deaths nor disputed what happens at horse shows. My only dispute was with the editorized reporting.

                                          I've read several hundred of your posts. Maybe you should too. Read what you are saying and how you are saying it.

                                          Comment

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