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Can an ammy be a working student??

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  • Can an ammy be a working student??

    The title says it all... can you be an ammy and a working student according to the USEF rules?

  • #2
    In my experience, no.
    My blog:

    RAWR

    Comment


    • #3
      I've known them to- but they had considerable savings in the bank to be able to afford to do so. That is, because you'd have to be able to support yourself without another form of income while working the full time hours of a working student.
      "are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn...I can yawn, because I ride better than you, Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn, you, not so much..." George Morris in Camden, SC

      Comment


      • #4
        Sure you can.

        But you pay all your bills (board, training, etc...) in full. No credits or discount given. No payment for riding or working. So basically you are working for free. I guess "working student" could mean "fancy title for free work from ammy rider that pays all bills".

        Honestly I don't think a "working student" really works for ammy riders if you are truly following the ammy rules.
        "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

        Comment


        • #5
          In addition to everything mentioned as to still paying all bills and receiving nothing for free, I believe you have to be pretty careful about riding other people's horses as well but I may have misunderstood that part.
          My blog:

          RAWR

          Comment


          • #6
            Wouldn't it depend a lot on what the duties of the working student are? When I was younger (much!), I was a working student in that I groomed horses for the trainer to ride in exchange for lessons. I wasn't riding or teaching. I don't see at all how that would violate the amateur rule.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
              Wouldn't it depend a lot on what the duties of the working student are? When I was younger (much!), I was a working student in that I groomed horses for the trainer to ride in exchange for lessons. I wasn't riding or teaching. I don't see at all how that would violate the amateur rule.
              Not sure how young you mean, but if you were a junior (17 & under) anything goes. You can even be paid for riding or teaching. It's once you age out that the ammy rules start applying.

              It's not the duties--it's the fact you are being compensated either by actual pay or credit that violates the rules. No where does it say you can't ever ride other horses or even teach lessons--it's when you collect or receive payment for doing so.
              "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

              Comment


              • #8
                No

                USEF is SO clear on this. If you receive ANY payment (money) or payment in Kind (trades) for work with/on (i.e. training/riding/exercising horse in hand or under saddle) YOU are not an AMMY.

                You can keep AMMY status if you say for example, horse/house sit when an owner is out of town, collect fees for hauling a horse you don't ride, etc. If you a a 4H/PC advisor and don't collect any fees, etc.

                So many people break this rule (in many areas, not just hunter jumper land )that is a joke at this point and needs to be rewritten. I loved what USEA did for a while until the big bad USEF monster made them stop. There was a cap in how much you could earn and still be an Ammy. Allowed for the small lesson income or small fee for riding a horse now and then. I think that was about $2K a year.

                I loved giving up my Ammy Status becuase as a working studnet at 16 because the BO and Trainer HAD to pay (not much) to be legal and in compliance with labor laws and her insurance.

                Oh, well.
                If you can see it, your doing it wrong...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hunter-eventer-hunter View Post
                  I loved giving up my Ammy Status becuase as a working studnet at 16 because the BO and Trainer HAD to pay (not much) to be legal and in compliance with labor laws and her insurance.
                  If you were a junior, you were exempt from the rules. Or was that in eventing?
                  "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I loved giving up my Ammy Status becuase as a working studnet at 16 because the BO and Trainer HAD to pay (not much) to be legal and in compliance with labor laws and her insurance.
                    ? You're only an amateur rider AFTER your 18th birthday. You can get paid all you want as a junior.

                    It's not the duties--it's the fact you are being compensated either by actual pay or credit that violates the rules. No where does it say you can't ever ride other horses or even teach lessons--it's when you collect or receive payment for doing so.
                    Agree. If I recall correctly, you may get paid as a groom as long as you NEVER ride horses under that trainer's care that don't belong to you. But if you're grooming, getting paid in lessons, and riding school horses, you're not an ammy.
                    ---
                    They're small hearts.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      so what about this scenario:

                      Person works as a groom handling and caring for X horses, none of which are his. He does not ride them. He gets paid a grooms salary of lets say $600.00 per week. He then takes that $2,400 per month and pays the bills on HIS horses, i.e. board, training, show expenses, etc. That seems to leave him in a ammy status, does it not?

                      so why not just pay the person instead of calling them a working student and let the working student pay their own bills?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Junior Status....

                        Originally posted by Giddy-up View Post
                        If you were a junior, you were exempt from the rules. Or was that in eventing?
                        Yep, I got to keep my junior status for H/J unitl I was 18 and then lost the Ammy. The Eventing was different and I showed some breeds that were covered by USEF and you lose ANY AMMY status quickly and you get in trouble if you get caught, and it is a big deal.

                        But at 18 or 16, 21 or 25 it is the same issue and the rules either needs to be enforced or re-written. It doesn't serv anyone at this point.

                        H-E-H
                        If you can see it, your doing it wrong...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by donkeyman View Post
                          so what about this scenario:

                          Person works as a groom handling and caring for X horses, none of which are his. He does not ride them. He gets paid a grooms salary of lets say $600.00 per week. He then takes that $2,400 per month and pays the bills on HIS horses, i.e. board, training, show expenses, etc. That seems to leave him in a ammy status, does it not?

                          so why not just pay the person instead of calling them a working student and let the working student pay their own bills?
                          Because most "working student" jobs you are given riding opportunities. And when you are a junior, it doesn't matter which is why most juniors are working students.

                          I agree--if the person in your example just calls themself a groom & gets paid as one, they are still an ammy. But they can never sit on any horse owned by or in the care of the person that is paying them (so no hacking the trainer or barn owner's horses if that's who pays them).
                          "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Giddy-up View Post
                            It's not the duties--it's the fact you are being compensated either by actual pay or credit that violates the rules. No where does it say you can't ever ride other horses or even teach lessons--it's when you collect or receive payment for doing so.
                            To clarify.

                            It is the being paid for SOMETHING (could just be baby sitting), and then riding horses owned, trained, boarded by the person who pays you for the baby sitting) that makes you a non amateur.
                            Janet

                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think for one thing there are a lot of different ways one can be a working student, so you can't just make a blanket statement that says any working student is violating the amateur rule.

                              I still stand by my own example that I (as an adult) was a "working student" of sorts in that I prepared (groomed and tacked up) and put away trainer's horses on days that he rode them in exchange for my lessons on a horse that I leased (a true lease in that I paid all the bills) and later a horse that I owned. It is the same as being a paid groom, braider, horse hauler, etc. I really can't see that it violates the amateur rule.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                this stuff is tricky.

                                So a groom in my example above works 40 hour week. Gets off at 5:00pm. Day and work over. No more pay.

                                Even though NOT paid and NOT compensated in anyway, he can't ride other peoples horses for shear pleasure after work? He can't ride his bosses horses for shear pleasure after work? if so he loses amatuer status? he can't sit on a horse at wellington and walk it from one side of the show grounds to the other on its back or he looses amatuer status?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by donkeyman View Post
                                  this stuff is tricky.

                                  So a groom in my example above works 40 hour week. Gets off at 5:00pm. Day and work over. No more pay.

                                  Even though NOT paid and NOT compensated in anyway, he can't ride other peoples horses for shear pleasure after work? He can't ride his bosses horses for shear pleasure after work? if so he loses amatuer status? he can't sit on a horse at wellington and walk it from one side of the show grounds to the other on its back or he looses amatuer status?
                                  Not if the person who pays them also either accepts money for training or showing said horse or owns them. Some completely random horse that has nothing to do with the trainer/employer yes. The problem is getting paid to do one thing - groom and then riding horses in training with employer or boarded with employer, it then implies that you are being paid to RIDE not groom. That is how people tried to get around the ammy rule before the additional subsections were put in.

                                  You may however ride your own horses or any horses leased by you with that lease being recorded with the USEF which then makes you the owner of record until the lease expires. This doesn't let you show in Amateur Owner classes but does allow one to show in Adult Amateur classes.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Even though NOT paid and NOT compensated in anyway, he can't ride other peoples horses for shear pleasure after work? He can't ride his bosses horses for shear pleasure after work? if so he loses amatuer status? he can't sit on a horse at wellington and walk it from one side of the show grounds to the other on its back or he looses amatuer status?
                                    Yup.

                                    It's not because said groom is deliberately trying to break the amateur rule. But, if he rides his boss's horses "for pleasure" one could easily argue that he's "training" them.

                                    He's being compensated for working around the barn, but there were plenty of people who were paid "as a groom" or "as a bookkeeper" and rode all day, even though they said they weren't being "paid to ride." The USEF cannot make a distinction between those "riding for shear pleasure" vs. those riding to train. So, if you're getting paid by the barn, no riding the barn's horses or horses in training at that barn. It's not set out to screw the poor, hardworking groom who just wants to ride for fun - it's set out to enforce those who were deliberately using terms like "groom" to break a rule.

                                    The groom may then ride horses for free all he wants at other barns, or ride his own horses.
                                    ---
                                    They're small hearts.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by donkeyman View Post
                                      this stuff is tricky.

                                      So a groom in my example above works 40 hour week. Gets off at 5:00pm. Day and work over. No more pay.

                                      Even though NOT paid and NOT compensated in anyway, he can't ride other peoples horses for shear pleasure after work? He can't ride his bosses horses for shear pleasure after work? if so he loses amatuer status? he can't sit on a horse at wellington and walk it from one side of the show grounds to the other on its back or he looses amatuer status?
                                      Yep.

                                      Because of one bad apple, a couple of decades ago, who was paid to be the barn's "book keeper", but rode the barn's horses most of the day, every day, and competed as an amateur on the weekend.

                                      When they changed the rule to close that loophole, they also shut out a lot of legitiamte amateurs. But I can't see any other easy way that they couold have cloesed the loophole without shutting out the others.

                                      But he can ride, for free, horses from a DIFFERENT barn all he wants.
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
                                        I think for one thing there are a lot of different ways one can be a working student, so you can't just make a blanket statement that says any working student is violating the amateur rule.

                                        I still stand by my own example that I (as an adult) was a "working student" of sorts in that I prepared (groomed and tacked up) and put away trainer's horses on days that he rode them in exchange for my lessons on a horse that I leased (a true lease in that I paid all the bills) and later a horse that I owned. It is the same as being a paid groom, braider, horse hauler, etc. I really can't see that it violates the amateur rule.
                                        What you did I would call "grooming". And no that doesn't violate the ammy rules. If you don't ride any other horses in your trainer's barn.

                                        I think the term "working student" is used too loosely & that's what causes a lot of confusion.
                                        "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

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