• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Could Our Teaching Professionals Be The Weak Link In Our Training System?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Could Our Teaching Professionals Be The Weak Link In Our Training System?

    There are a few current threads right now on The COTH Bulletin Board that have generated good discussion and some possible solutions to the low level of training and riding we're seeing at some shows. Mostly, they seem to go around and around, touching on issues that contribute, but don't solve, the problem.

    One thread, that is a response to Bill Moroney's article in The Chronicle where he stated that many of the Final's riders were not experienced enough to answer the questions asked at a Finals competition, is particularly interesting, and, I think, true.

    In life, as in riding, humans follow trends, often without realizing the long term consequences. Students imitate their trainers, and trainers imitate the BNT and riders who win. Sometimes, copying something without understanding it's source morphs into something else entirely.

    If the trainers made the time and had interest in teaching better prepared riders, the standards would rise. Local qualifying classes that lower the fence height, trainers who don't know enough to teach beyond the crest release or are too busy getting to too many shows to read, or go to clinics, etc, need to want to open their eyes.

    Could our professional trainers be the weak link in our system? Is a lack of standards, education and growth for those that teach riding in the USA the reason that so many riders aren't prepared to show at their level? What could be done to turn this trend around?

  • #2
    Don't have an answer on what we can do, but I agree that a lack of completness in the training in America is a big issue. However, the horse world is very expansive and hard to cohesivly change.
    ~ Kimberlee
    www.SpunkyDiva.com

    Comment


    • #3
      I think everything, in some measure, is the weak link, actually. Great trainers with kids who are over-scheduled, great riders without the funds to get great training and good horses, parents who want perfection without putting in the time so their kids can get there, our culture of instant gratification, trainers who are under-qualified and who over-charge, a lack of affordable but competitive and high quality shows, etc. etc. etc.
      You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by foursocks View Post
        I think everything, in some measure, is the weak link, actually. Great trainers with kids who are over-scheduled, great riders without the funds to get great training and good horses, parents who want perfection without putting in the time so their kids can get there, our culture of instant gratification, trainers who are under-qualified and who over-charge, a lack of affordable but competitive and high quality shows, etc. etc. etc.

        well stated
        http://good-times.webshots.com/album/557433725gtOAuC

        Comment


        • #5
          BNT's

          I know for a fact that there is a local (to me) BNT (and I mean big) who hates teaching, thinks that people who can't get it on the first try are stupid and only teaches because he has to teach the clients in his barn (whose board pay the rent thus allowing him a facility from which to be based). As well, he is known for loving your horse when you first bring it to him, only liking it when you move in and then within 6 months deciding it is unsuitable for you. Then he finds you an amazing horse that you actually can't ride and only he can. And of course, to increase it's value he has to campaign it leaving you to be an owner not a rider (but then he doesn't have to teach you!) At horse shows his clients are left to their own devices and end up schooling each other in an effort to get around. Why, you may ask, do people stay/go with him? Maybe so they can say " I ride with.....".

          Sadly, I think that there is more of this going on then is commonly discussed. Maybe not to this extreme, but we all know that the clients are the bread and butter that make many a professional's riding career happen. It takes a wise, mature, non-glory seeking person to put the needs of their clients over their own aspirations. And many professionals may be great riders and/or trainers but less than wonderful teachers.

          Comment


          • #6
            What I notice is the system " Trainer trains students how to ride at a show, trainer fixes in between all that they don't teach the riders like developing toplines, and so on. So it is always you need the trainer.
            Ofcourse not everyone is this kind of trainer , but I do think real riding is lacking , it is hard to do and yes you are always learning , but it is worth it. And yes aaahhh to whoever said overcharging what in the bajeebies has gone on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              I have thought for a long time that trainers and horse sales agents should be licensed in our country. The instructor trainer should have to pass a course and continue with education courses to keep his or her license. As for selling horses it should be like a realtor there should truly be a board of ethics. It seems absurd that in a sport where horses are valued at $100,000 or more anyone can jump in and be a trainer or agent with no governing body to regulate their actions.

              Comment


              • #8
                There are a lot of 'sketchy' trainers like those described above out there. However, speaking from the other side (as a very, very LNT ), I really strive to teach traditional horsemanship 'old school' style & I can't tell you how many clients I have lost to trainers who will promise to have them jumping around the ring in 3 weeks. Now, I don't have access to the $$$$$ horses who will pack someone who is perched on top in a pretty pose (& I'm not saying all riders do this--I am sort of entry-level & VVLNT in hunters, as I said), but I don't really want to teach that way. Students in my barn must longe if they need work on their position, no matter what their 'level', they must be able to ride in 2 point, or with no irons, or with no hands; everyone gets low-level dressage; everyone must have solid flatwork before progressing to jumps, & decent jumpwork before progressing to courses, etc. They must also accept their own responsibility for the ride they get--it's not the horse's problem, it's not the way he was prepped (or not prepped) for them--it's THEM. You get the ride you deserve. But, people just don't have the time. Parents want the kids in the ring yesterday, & there darn well better be ribbons every time they ride out, or there's h@#l to pay. After all, that's why they're spending all this money. The kids want to get out there & show, & it's "Well, Susie over at MNT's barn was jumping in her second month." & "Riders over at BNT's place don't have to be able to ride in 2 point for 15 minutes, why do I?" After all, bombing around over fences is way more fun than learning to have a solid leg in 2 point. Mom doesn't want to hear that if little Pumpkin would sit up straight, stop stiffing the pony in the face, & pay attention to her diagonals she might place better--it's poor Pony who's a piece of crap & no good as a ride. After all, if s/he was a better horse, s/he'd be winning.

                Now, I do get my share of gems. I have a small following of riders (mostly older teens & young adults) who have previously been with Bigger NTs & have left to come to me because they want to solidify their position or develop the ability to bring along their own greenie, & I dearly love them. I also have a group of friends in the training community who see things the same way as I do & are struggling to bring along riders of the quality of those in days gone by. But it's tough to pay the bills & feel optimistic about the future of riding when you see riders changing to barns where they are allowed to sacrifice the traditional basics for a chance to have speed & glory. It's even more painful when you hear through the grapevine that the kid/horse has had a major accident/injury that you know could have been prevented by proper horsemanship & attention to detail.



                Whew! Sorry for the rant--pet hobbyhorse of mine. Back to lurking!
                ""I'm a believer that there's artistry in everything from a lawn gnome to a desk chair to a symphony to an Andy Warhol painting. There's art in absolutely everything." --Darren Criss

                Comment


                • #9
                  Isn't "a teaching professional" an oxymoron?

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Teach. I couldn't agree with you more. I am a trainer in New England also, and have the same rant. All the time. As you said, it's hard to feel optimistic about the future of riding when there isn't a clear reason why the system of teaching from "the days gone by", a system that produced solid, complete riders and horsemen and women, has dissolved into what it is today. Yes, money, greed, ignorance and other negative qualities have reared their ugly heads these days in a horse world that is run like a business without much regard for the horse or client. The clients you mentioned act the way they do because they have been abused in the past. When exposed to good training, the kind you described you offer, I find most students are excited and relieved to finally find someone who will teach it.

                    The question that remains is how could trainers be encouraged or even forced to be more educated, more caring, and more motivated to take the time to help produce better riders? If this could change, every other aspect of riding and showing would improve.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teach View Post
                      There are a lot of 'sketchy' trainers like those described above out there. However, speaking from the other side (as a very, very LNT ), I really strive to teach traditional horsemanship 'old school' style & I can't tell you how many clients I have lost to trainers who will promise to have them jumping around the ring in 3 weeks. Now, I don't have access to the $$$$$ horses who will pack someone who is perched on top in a pretty pose (& I'm not saying all riders do this--I am sort of entry-level & VVLNT in hunters, as I said), but I don't really want to teach that way. Students in my barn must longe if they need work on their position, no matter what their 'level', they must be able to ride in 2 point, or with no irons, or with no hands; everyone gets low-level dressage; everyone must have solid flatwork before progressing to jumps, & decent jumpwork before progressing to courses, etc. They must also accept their own responsibility for the ride they get--it's not the horse's problem, it's not the way he was prepped (or not prepped) for them--it's THEM. You get the ride you deserve. But, people just don't have the time. Parents want the kids in the ring yesterday, & there darn well better be ribbons every time they ride out, or there's h@#l to pay. After all, that's why they're spending all this money. The kids want to get out there & show, & it's "Well, Susie over at MNT's barn was jumping in her second month." & "Riders over at BNT's place don't have to be able to ride in 2 point for 15 minutes, why do I?" After all, bombing around over fences is way more fun than learning to have a solid leg in 2 point. Mom doesn't want to hear that if little Pumpkin would sit up straight, stop stiffing the pony in the face, & pay attention to her diagonals she might place better--it's poor Pony who's a piece of crap & no good as a ride. After all, if s/he was a better horse, s/he'd be winning.

                      Now, I do get my share of gems. I have a small following of riders (mostly older teens & young adults) who have previously been with Bigger NTs & have left to come to me because they want to solidify their position or develop the ability to bring along their own greenie, & I dearly love them. I also have a group of friends in the training community who see things the same way as I do & are struggling to bring along riders of the quality of those in days gone by. But it's tough to pay the bills & feel optimistic about the future of riding when you see riders changing to barns where they are allowed to sacrifice the traditional basics for a chance to have speed & glory. It's even more painful when you hear through the grapevine that the kid/horse has had a major accident/injury that you know could have been prevented by proper horsemanship & attention to detail.



                      Whew! Sorry for the rant--pet hobbyhorse of mine. Back to lurking!

                      WONDERFULLY stated. I absolutely agree. I tell my students up front that they won't be cantering for at LEAST 6 months (at 1x a week lessons) and if that 6 months happens to end in winter, then bank on not starting until Spring (our indoor is small, so if you don't have your act together at the canter by then, no canter for you!). Jumping doesn't start for at least a year. The "leasts" are for the talented kids. They have to show me that they are in absolute control (99% of the time anyway) before they are allowed to move on to a new level.

                      Our BO who doesn't have time to teach on a regular basis, but is an excellent teacher holds clinics whenever I'm off property with shows for the newer kids coming up. Her last one was on horse behavior and safety. It was great! The kids learned how to handle the horses safely, all the time. How to anticipate and prevent accidents. Next she's doing a tack clinic in January.

                      We're a little nothing barn too. VVLNT (LOVE that by the way) but as the kids develop, they go in the ring and kick some serious butt. They get noticed and do well and parents are happy.
                      Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Change starts at home...

                        and this is a great start. If all of us, LNT, stick to our "guns", then we might be able to make a ripple, and eventually, a wave!

                        There isn't a one thing that will fix it all. It is up to each of us, to make the difference. The results may not be noticeable or even tangible immediately, or even for several years, but eventually, it will!

                        Keep up the great work!!
                        www.brydellefarm.com ....developing riders, NOT passengers!
                        Member of LNHorsemanshipT & Proud of It Clique
                        "What gets me up every morning is realizing how much more there is still to learn." -GHM

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nigel View Post
                          Isn't "a teaching professional" an oxymoron?
                          Only if you suck at it.
                          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                          A life lived by example, done too soon.
                          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cheveaux, I think that some of the blame can be laid at the door of the trainers. The bad ones, that is. But my experience has mirrored Teach's in that I have trouble finding students who actually want to learn to ride, rather than being stroked and told how wonderful they already are. You can't learn anything like that, and you'll never progress. And my students progress, because I teach. I don't babysit. Riding correctly and well takes a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat and tears; if you're not willing to put in that effort, go play tennis or take piano lessons. And put the rest of the blame where it should be - on those who take the "fast food" approach to everything in their lives, and think that a hefty bank balance is the only thing necessary to allow them to show and win.

                            JME.
                            In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                            A life lived by example, done too soon.
                            www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              But my experience has mirrored Teach's in that I have trouble finding students who actually want to learn to ride, rather than being stroked and told how wonderful they already are. You can't learn anything like that, and you'll never progress. And my students progress, because I teach. I don't babysit.

                              ESG: You, Teach and I may have to form a LNT Enlightenment Force. From 3 to 3,000, our ranks will grow!

                              As I said earlier, I find students who had been previously trained in the school of quick fixes and the "rush to the ring" method, are thrilled to have a really well constructed old fashioned lesson. They learn, step by step, how to ride track, pace balance and rhythm, and ultimately ride with workmanlike confidence and style. From past responses on this board, it seems that a majority want to be trained properly, but have given up and accepted what's offered.

                              Did you see another current thread on the COTH Hunter/Jumper BB,
                              Attention Hunter/Jumper Lovers (pics). She's a student of Mike Hennigan's and posted these older pictures (link below). One rider after another with beautiful basics. It can be taught, just as it always used to be taught. Trainers just have to care enough to bother, or bother to learn more so that they can pass it along.

                              Here's the link to the pictures:

                              http://pets.webshots.com/album/556381503quEHbj


                              And thanks for the reply to the oxyMORON.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I have absolutely no idea where all these barns are where they don't teach people how to ride and just plunk them on $50,000 horses. These comments are absolutely baffling to me, and I'm not being sarcastic. I'm privileged to be associated with an eventing barn owned by a nationally-ranked eventer, and a h-j barn where the kids go to A-levels and Florida as well as local shows for the pony kids. At BOTH barns, the riders WORK and LEARN, whether or not they're adults or kids. At the h-j barn, if a rider is just standing around, they're told by someone to pick up a broom or a hose. At the eventing barn, at LEAST 10 minutes of each lesson is mandatory no-stirrups - more if you start making mistakes.

                                Where are these barns where they let people ride a horse without teaching you how? I just don't get it.
                                I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Chevaux View Post
                                  As I said earlier, I find students who had been previously trained in the school of quick fixes and the "rush to the ring" method, are thrilled to have a really well constructed old fashioned lesson. They learn, step by step, how to ride track, pace balance and rhythm, and ultimately ride with workmanlike confidence and style. From past responses on this board, it seems that a majority want to be trained properly, but have given up and accepted what's offered.
                                  This has been my experience. I keep my student #s low and am selective who I teach, so I can have these types of students, as they are the only ones who will thrive in my program, as I require the work that is needed to be a great rider, a true horseman.
                                  www.brydellefarm.com ....developing riders, NOT passengers!
                                  Member of LNHorsemanshipT & Proud of It Clique
                                  "What gets me up every morning is realizing how much more there is still to learn." -GHM

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Guin View Post
                                    I have absolutely no idea where all these barns are where they don't teach people how to ride and just plunk them on $50,000 horses. These comments are absolutely baffling to me, and I'm not being sarcastic. I'm privileged to be associated with an eventing barn owned by a nationally-ranked eventer, and a h-j barn where the kids go to A-levels and Florida as well as local shows for the pony kids. At BOTH barns, the riders WORK and LEARN, whether or not they're adults or kids. At the h-j barn, if a rider is just standing around, they're told by someone to pick up a broom or a hose. At the eventing barn, at LEAST 10 minutes of each lesson is mandatory no-stirrups - more if you start making mistakes.
                                    Your third sentence explains it - you're "associated with an eventing barn". Eventers have to learn to ride, or they die. It's that simple. You're required to ride a dressage test. Want to take a guess at how many of the kids doing the equitation classes could do even a decent First level test? How 'bout "none"? There is a world of difference between the requirements for an event rider and a hunter rider (which, I ASSume, we're discussing). And because the H/J barn is in association with the eventing barn, sounds like some of their better practices have rubbed off. And no flames, please.

                                    Where are these barns where they let people ride a horse without teaching you how? I just don't get it.
                                    A better question would be, "Where aren't they?".
                                    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                    A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Brydelle Farm View Post
                                      This has been my experience. I keep my student #s low and am selective who I teach, so I can have these types of students, as they are the only ones who will thrive in my program, as I require the work that is needed to be a great rider, a true horseman.
                                      <ESG applauding Brydelle>

                                      Me, too. And, sadly, I've had all too many would-be riders who come, take one lesson, and never come back. Probably because, unless they can demonstrate some level of proficiency, they don't get past a trot on a circle. Tends to dissuade the dilettantes...................... Yes, my schoolmaster can jump a gorgeous 3'6 course (as you've been claiming you've been doing), but you have to ask him properly. Yes, my old dressage schoolmaster can do two tempis and canter half pass, but you have to ask him properly. "Schoolmaster" is not synonymous with "push button"; too many people can't make that distinction........or ride well enough to make a true schoolmaster perform.
                                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by ESG View Post
                                        Yes, my schoolmaster can jump a gorgeous 3'6 course (as you've been claiming you've been doing), but you have to ask him properly. Yes, my old dressage schoolmaster can do two tempis and canter half pass, but you have to ask him properly. "Schoolmaster" is not synonymous with "push button"; too many people can't make that distinction........or ride well enough to make a true schoolmaster perform.
                                        Exactly!! You mean they aren't just suppose to do it!
                                        www.brydellefarm.com ....developing riders, NOT passengers!
                                        Member of LNHorsemanshipT & Proud of It Clique
                                        "What gets me up every morning is realizing how much more there is still to learn." -GHM

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X