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Was this fair??

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  • Was this fair??

    I was at an a-rated show this past weekend, and in my hunter flat class I had another horse constantly on my mares butt. At one point I heard the persons trainer yell at them for running up on other horses. The second time they ran up on us, they were sooo close that I probably could have turned around and touched them. I couldn't circle out cause they were slightly to my inside and I would have hit them. Instead of going to the inside of me and pass, they continued to ride my horse's butt. The trainer (who was standing pretty close to the judges stand) yelled at her again for doing it, but she didn't back off. My red headed mare had decided that she had had enough and kicked out. This was directly in front of the judge. There was only 8 of us so there was plenty of room. My mare normally pins in the top 2 in the flat class. The judge pinned us almost last. He pinned a horse that was visably lame over us. Is this fair? I realize that manners count, but the other rider clearly was riding my horse's butt sooo bad and he pinned her over me.
    Happy Hour-TB
    Cowboy Casanova - Brandenburg

  • #2
    Despite the rudeness and lack of horsemanship, it probably would have been wise to circle away from the rider on your butt rather than letting the situation escalate. Also, after the first instance I would definitely keep a hawk eye on her and prevent the situation from happening a second time.
    "Beware the hobby that eats."
    Benjamin Franklin

    Comment


    • #3
      The judge may have felt that you did not take any action to get away from the other horse and therefore put your horse in a position that was unsafe - ie, kicking out at the other horse. As you say, manners do count.

      Part of showing, particularly on the flat, is about awareness of where you are in the ring and being able to maneuver away from trouble. It's unfortunate that another exhibitor made it difficult for you, but that's showing sometimes.
      **********
      We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
      -PaulaEdwina

      Comment


      • #4
        This is a tough one for me. I have a mare who kicks and I wanted to put a red ribbon in her tail for her flat classes but I was told that it would cloud the judge's opinion of her. My girl wound up in a similar situation only there were like 20 horses in that class. The girl ran up on our mare twice, and the mare finally not only kicked her but backed up to do it.

        While it does suck it made lose the class, I'm betting that the girl will never do that again. Next time, I'd circle in front of her and cut her off. Just my personal opinion.......

        Comment


        • #5
          1. Life is not fair.
          2. Also, with only 8 in the ring, you should have been able to get away from this person.

          Comment


          • #6
            Is this fair?

            Yes

            Your mare kicked out, which is not a desirable trait in a hunter. Does it suck that the girl kept running up your horse's butt, yes. The judge would consider it your fault if you had room to get away from her.

            Comment


            • #7
              Unfortunately

              A horse kicking in a hunter under saddle class is like taking a rail down in a hunter over fences class. It should eliminate that horse from the ribbons. I have lots of sympathy for you because I rode a mare for years who could easily win the hacks but was not tolerant of other horses close to her. I grew eyes in the back of my head and always knew where we were relative to the other horses. You have to spot the horses that you know will be gallumphing along on the forehand and passing close to you also. You need to have them on the other side of the ring from you, right from the time you walk in.

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              • #8
                Is this fair? I realize that manners count, but the other rider clearly was riding my horse's butt sooo bad and he pinned her over me.
                Yes, it's fair.

                When they're out hunting there isn't always going to be space. A horse that kicks another can be quite a liability. While it sucks and she's ill-mannered, your horse still acted poorly.
                ---
                They're small hearts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This happens all the time in flat classes. While it is not fair it is up to you to be aware of your surroundings especially if you know your horse will kick. You must place your horse so as to not get blocked in and you have a way to manuever around traffic. I have preached this time and time again to my girls and is a pet peeve of mine. I'm not trying to be harsh but I feel it is like getting behind the wheel. In the judge's defense she may not have seen what happened other than your horse kicking out. Yes it was a small class but she may have been looking the other direction. Unless you know for sure it would be hard to pass judgement. Good luck next time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    this is where the leg yield comes in handy. A gradual leg yield would have got you away from the rider without any dire consequence.

                    Sounds like you need to focus on developing some ring craft
                    _\\]
                    -- * > hoopoe
                    Procrastinate NOW
                    Introverted Since 1957

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am guessing with only 8 in the ring, you probably could have gotten away from her (ie. cut the end of the ring if circling was not an option.) In such a small hack class, it would be easy to see what was going on and a decent judge would most likely reward you for moving away from a potentially dangerous situation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Was it fair? No.

                        Was the judge right to place the class the way s/he did? Yes.

                        I was in a hack yesterday in 15 horses and had two people do that to me. After we were out of ear shot from the judge, I turned to them and not very nicely said, "DO NOT ride up on my horse like that". Both were shocked and circled. I went up to both afterwards that it was both poor form and bad sportsmanship to do that to anyone during a flat class. Both apologized and said they shouldn't have done it. I could have been nicer during the class, but it got the job done. It's your job to look out for your horse. You either slow down and circle, stay away from that horse in the first place, go up the quarter line, or in my case where I was pinned on the rail... you tell the rider to back off.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          It was pretty much impossible for me to have circled out at that particular point. The other horse was on my inside and his head was past my mare's flank. I was clearly aware of my surroundings, she had cut the corner. Because of the jumps and other rider, I was left with no where to go but straight. I guess I just assumed that she would have circled instead of practically running into someone else. I've been showing for close to 15 years, so I'm pretty sure that I know proper ring etiquette and how to properly/safely flat my horse. My mare has never acted out before and is usually very tolerant of other horses getting a little close, I guess she had just had enough. A friend said she thought the other horse nipped her on the bum.
                          Happy Hour-TB
                          Cowboy Casanova - Brandenburg

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Where did the judge pin the person who ran up on your horse's butt?
                            ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What do you wish the judging outcome had been?

                              While I agree the poor ride from others wasn't fair, what could the judge do about that? I can't imagine ignoring a horse kicking out at another, regardless of the circumstances. After all, the U/S is supposed to demonstrate the beautiful manners (as well of movement) of the horse you'd ride with a bunch of drunk people on a Sunday.

                              I also agree with other posters. While you may not have been able to circle before the kick, you probably knew your mare was getting riled. If that took a few laps, you need to do something to find some space earlier. If your mare's temper goes from zero to 60 in a flash, then the class was, in fact, pinned as it should have been.
                              The armchair saddler
                              Politically Pro-Cat

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Regardless of the reason, a horse that kicks goes to the bottom of the class. That's just the way it is. Beyond the "manners" requirement in the class specs, a horse that kicks is a MAJOR safety issue in the show ring.

                                How long was this girl on your horse's hip? I have a hard time believing that you couldn't get a spot by yourself in an eight horse class. When there is no room to circle, you still have options like lengthening or shortening your horse's stride briefly to make more space, waiting an extra couple of seconds to ask for a transition until you are out of the pack, etc. There are always options for getting out of a jam. While a slow transition might drop you down in the placings in a very competitive class, it is a better option than putting another horse/rider in danger. JMHO.
                                Last edited by Montanas_Girl; Aug. 3, 2009, 11:17 AM. Reason: spelling

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Buglet View Post
                                  It was pretty much impossible for me to have circled out at that particular point. The other horse was on my inside and his head was past my mare's flank. I was clearly aware of my surroundings, she had cut the corner, but because of the jumps and other rider, I was left with no where to go but straight. I guess I just assumed that she would have circled instead of practically running into someone else. I've been showing for close to 15 years, so I'm pretty sure that I know proper ring etiquette and how to properly/safely flat my horse. My mare has never acted out before and is usually very tolerant of other horses getting a little close, I guess she had just had enough. A friend said she thought the other horse nipped her on the bum.
                                  The judge did the correct thing. It is up to YOU to stay clear of other horses. You can never trust someone else to do it for you. If you get cut off, it's your fault. If you get run up on, it's your fault. It certainly wasn't NICE of the other person, but the judge didn't really have a choice.

                                  You indicate that it was the "second time" that the horse ran up on you that your horse kicked. With only 8 in the ring, you should have made sure that there was no "second time." ESPECIALLY if you could tell that this rider was a butt-runner-upper sort of rider.

                                  And in the situation you just described (in your second post, the one I quoted here), if I had let things get that far so that I was stuck in that manner I would have tried to fall back behind the other horse by rating my speed a bit. Once they had gotten far enough ahead of me I would have circled or ridden up the quarter line and reestablished my pace. Sure, slowing down isn't great, but it would have been better than letting your horse kick out at the other horse.

                                  It sucks, but you can't really blame anyone -- ESPECIALLY not the judge. You'll never place in the top of a hack class if your horse kicks out -- no matter WHAT the reason.


                                  Edited to add: apparently Montana's Girl and I would have done the same thing
                                  Originally posted by tidy rabbit
                                  Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    When you enter the ring, you should be spacing yourself out away from other horses. Then stay alert for where horses are in the ring. You can always cut a corner early or cut across the ring to keep away from others. You should be able to tell if someone is gaining on you, and change your path to avoid the situation you describe. That's all part of being successful in flat classes.

                                    The judge was correct. A horse that kicks is normally not pinned.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Buglet View Post
                                      I had another horse constantly on my mares butt. The second time they ran up on us...Instead of going to the inside of me and pass, they continued to ride my horse's butt... My red headed mare had decided that she had had enough and kicked out. This was directly in front of the judge. There was only 8 of us so there was plenty of room. My mare normally pins in the top 2 in the flat class. The judge pinned us almost last.

                                      PULLLLLEEEZE. You later stated there was no room for you to move but here you state there was plenty of room for her to pass? And she ran up your butt more then once?? In a class of EIGHT???

                                      Yeah, you can get caught like this sometimes, ONCE. The judge would have clearly heard me tell her to back off, speaking up is not against any rule, you need to call it just like a fence sometimes...like "I am inside you" or " Outside, don't cut me off" or here "don't run up on me". Or you could have SPED UP a little given the circumstances???

                                      Staying OFF the rail, like down the quarter line if the jumps allow it as well as constantly monitering the position of others works a whole lot better then pasting yourself to the rail and expecting others to go around you-especially if the horse is faster then yours...and you CAN circle between jumps if needed.

                                      And, that red headed mare remark? Are we to assume avoidance of all red headed mares is a given because they are all bad mannered idiots with tempers? ALL horses will kick if we put them in a situation where they have to defend themselves.

                                      In any show, you have to assume you will share that ring with others who are nervous, may be having horse problems or are simply very novice riders who are clueless. You have to ride defensively and not put you or your horse pasted to that rail and just expect others to stay away from you.

                                      So, yeah, it was fair. Kicking is bad manners and you were in a position to avoid it if it happened at least TWICE in this tiny class.

                                      Why you are concerned over who was 6th, 7th and 8th in a small class of eight-"beating" you- escapes me.
                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        This sounds like a situation in which a little polite verbal cue would have been wise. I've been known to call out an "excuse me," "heads up," or "my horse kicks" when someone traps me like that. Obviously, if a judge hears you, they may count it against you. But I'd rather that than be pinned against the rail when the kicking match begins.

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