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"Dirty" landing problem

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  • "Dirty" landing problem

    So, in March we took a gelding, 17,2 h, 8 yo from jumping lines. This owner, not experienced rider, was fed off with him and decided to send him to slaughter.

    At the beginning he was very nervous of a rider, hard to saddle and bridle, panic attacks, especially the first few minutes of the ride and so, but at the same time very good on groundwork and really really sweet and obedient baby.

    First thing we spent time calming him down and relaxing, now we can saddle and bridle him outside, in field, he is not running away under the rider when mounted and is much better in general. Still very hard to stop - he pulls like a train, but already is doing a bit better each day.

    He spent a month at a trainer and some improvement had been achieved, but there are some major problems still.

    The main thing is "dirty" landing after the jump. He is very keen jumper, great speed, can jump and is happy to jump anything, but when he lands, he lands basically on his mouth and rider can easy fly over the neck; he also has very "hard" mouth and is heavy pulling, another problem, but we are working on it. He is not an easy ride at all but well worth a try.

    But what about this landing on nose? Had you had similar problems (training or medical) and had they been solved and how?
    Here are 2 video from yesterday

    We really want this boy to do what he likes the most - jump, but we can not find what is his problem. Is it only training or you can see something medical? Any ideas and suggestions would be great.
    ** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB*** member

  • #2
    He seems like a good boy...but I would not be jumping him yet. On the video it seems like you have very little control on the flat going to the jump, around the turns and then away from the jump. He is very heavy on his forehand. I could not see what kind of bit you had on him, but perhaps something with a LITTLE elevator action (not a lot) might help. Also, gridwork to teach him to use his hind end. Right now he is just running through the distances, and jumping over his front end (that is what you feel in the air). Good luck with him, and I know you will get some other great suggestions fromt this board
    Certified Spiritual Medium/ Animal Communicator


    • #3
      Most likely not medical...we used to call those Moles. Trying to dive for the ground. And yep, it's not only tough but can be chancy to ride.
      Gymnastics, gymnastics, gymnastics...that's what has helped for me in the past. No speed, no courses for a good long while, just lines and then progressing to turns later on with jumps designed to rock the horse back and get his eyes and head up. Deeper seat, raise the hands a bit but bounces and lines where he *has* to look up and keep his head up all the time in order to see the next jump in the line without the rider holding his head up. Takes a lot of practice and repetition to get it to start sticking and working. And when they move on to smaller courses with more space in between and turns, if they start falling back on the habit then right back to gymnastics again.
      And ibuprofen for the rider's shoulders.
      He's cute though.
      You jump in the saddle,
      Hold onto the bridle!
      Jump in the line!


      • #4
        I see a horse who is running to the jumps and pulling his head down on the landing.
        The rider does not have a secure seat and is allowing this to happen.
        I suggest to take a few steps back, for both horse and rider.
        The rider needs to work on not throwing his upper body forward. The horse needs more flat work, to get him off the forehand.
        I agree with working on grids, this will help the horse use his hind end and think about where he's putting his feet. it will also help with the heavy forehand problem.
        Some basic dressage work will help this horse to balance himself and teach him to engage his hind end.
        "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." ~ Albert Einstein~


        • #5
          Originally posted by AnnaCrew View Post
          So, in March we took a gelding, 17,2 h, 8 yo from jumping lines. This owner, not experienced rider, was fed off with him and decided to send him to slaughter.
          We really want this boy to do what he likes the most - jump, but we can not find what is his problem. Is it only training or you can see something medical? Any ideas and suggestions would be great.
          I would wait until I had a better handle on his flat work before jumping, but, that said--on the flat, transitions, transitions, transitions plus tons of schooling figures to get him balanced and understanding the aids. As soon as he got heavy in my hand I would do add leg, soften, and do*something* different--a square turn. A circle or figure 8. A halt and rein back. ANYTHING to set him off his nose a little and get him to rebalance himself. At walk, at trot, and at canter.

          When I was ready to jump him, it would be an easy cross rails here or there added into his flatwork at trot only. Be schooling the flat, pop a cross rail, go back to flat schooling--and DON'T go right back to the cross rail. Do more figures, transitions, things he should now understand mean balancing. When he is steady and settled, casually add in another and then go back to flat work. If you only get in a few cross rails at trot at first, don't worry. You have to take the fear out of this; he's rushing because he's all out of balance and doesn't know how to accept the rider's help. Probably has not HAD rider's help before you guys. Rehab takes a lot longer than doing it right with a horse from the start.

          When he is trotting his cross rails calmly, you can start to do small gymnastics. At any time that he gets rushing, just head back into your flat work and do that for a while. I would only trot in until the whole experience is no big deal to him--he can canter in only once he can hold it together for approaching a gymnastics line at trot. Once in the gymnastic he can canter, of course.

          Hope that helps.


          • Original Poster

            Thank you for suggestions. In general yes, it was exactly what he was doing at trainer. And what he is doing at home. Since May. Without serious improvement. A bit better, but after 3 month work... He just wants to crush through the course over everything at max speed - and is really pleased with himself about that.

            Yesterday we let him jump as I wanted to take videos and show here our problem child.

            Trainer had serious blisters, husband has. Trainer even tried to use a serious bit (we don't as husband is not advanced for it and may cause new problems, we have for him one heavy, but not sharp). It worked a bit but still - he gets really excited.

            OK, thank you, actually you made may day - if you suggest that's only training problem, we shall continue and hopefully in 5 years or so there will be some positive news to tell about him If not, my husband will have wonderful looooong and strooooong monkey hands
            ** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB*** member


            • #7
              Anna, I don't have anywhere near the experience that some of the others that have answered you have, BUT we have a similar situation with DD's pony. She is just really starting to see some progress after almost a year of following a similar program of lots of flatwork and trotting single jumps. Pony barely did lines for almost six months. Just lots and lots and lots of singles and then flatwork in between. However, it is coming together for them - it just take LOTS of time.


              • Original Poster

                Thank you It really gives me some hope because I'm getting a bit frustrated with him - such a sweetheart on ground and such a banshee with rider - when breeder sold him at 4, he was OK, but last 4 years with "interesting" rider had done this to him.
                Here he was at trainer - flatwork, flatwork and more flatwork
                and here with our other horse, mare, who is doing well
                ** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB*** member


                • #9
                  I agree with those who said he sounds like a good boy, but he needs time, Anna. I would not be jumping this horse. He needs months and months of riding, quiet, arena, dressage, learn to use his body, listen, etc. He needs to be ridden quietly at trots, serpentines, canters, halts, transitions, over ground poles, till he calms down and trusts his rider, and forget the fences til next spring, you can try some cross rails if he is quiet and learning his flatwork, and only once in a while. Please go slow. He doesn't know what is expected of him at all. Just stop, bring him back. Start from the begining, give him a couple of years.
                  Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MDPONYMOM View Post
                    Anna, I don't have anywhere near the experience that some of the others that have answered you have, BUT we have a similar situation with DD's pony. She is just really starting to see some progress after almost a year of following a similar program of lots of flatwork and trotting single jumps. Pony barely did lines for almost six months. Just lots and lots and lots of singles and then flatwork in between. However, it is coming together for them - it just take LOTS of time.
                    MDPonyMom, you have a very intelligent trainer.

                    That's a train of a horse, and I'm not sure gymnastics are going to do anything to stop it quite yet. Just as MDPM suggested, trot fences mixed in with flatwork. Popping over them like they are no big deal, until he rides the same up to, over, and away from as he does on the flat. Then I would move to lines, trotting in and either halting, relaxing, and walking out of the lines or downward transition to trot after first fence, circle until horse is relaxed again, and then trotting out of the line. When he can trot in, downward, and trot out straight without the hype I'd finally consider cantering out in an easy add.

                    Then I would add the gymnastics.

                    I don't really see him as one that totally nose dives in the air. Only saw it when the rider missed to the last fence in the first video and he just wasn't balanced to begin with in the second. 80% of his weight is in front of the rider's leg, pretty much no choice but for it to teeter-totter out of the air before the hind end has finished the jump . . . thus no hind end there on landing, and the only thing left to stand on is his nose
                    EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta


                    • #11
                      Have a Veterinarian check this horse throughly especially for possible stifle problems / soreness.


                      • #12
                        that horse is soooo unbalanced on his front end. you see him carening around the corners trying to get his balance. the trainer is running him at his jumps. i think the horse is very nice looking and i would do tons of basic dressage. and cavalleti work and poles. i would not jump until the horse develops some balance. then i would do trotting work jumping. with lots of gymnastics and single crossrails. from there i would progess to trotting in and cantering out.
                        he is a nice horse, but you need to put some time in before he is ready to jump around courses.
                        good luck!


                        • #13
                          Go back to basics...

                          Flat work, flat work and more flat work. I would not jump for awhile.

                          He looks like a very good guy. He needs to learn to canter on his own... It seems he has been pulled on and has learned to lean. You need to learn to not get caught up in that dance.

                          I would recommend lessons with a good professional. Lots of flat work, transitions, circles and poles on the ground (later after the canter gets confirmed).


                          • #14
                            I can't see the videos at work but I have to agree with everybody from the description. Take a break from the jumping all together and get him working perfect on the flat. As my trainer says...jumping is just flatwork with obstacles.
                            OTTB - Hurricane Denton - Kane - the big dog!
                            Tuggy - RIP 9/12/2016 - Wait for me at the bridge
                            Foster LolaMaria AKA LolaBean (Boxer)


                            • #15
                              I know diddley-squat about jumping, but I do know an unbalanced rider when I see one.

                              Rider needs to go back -- with horse -- and work on developing a more secure and balanced seat. Lots of dressage with a "real" dressage trainer to learn how to better utilize the core.

                              Just my 2 cents, take it as you will

                              Mad Mare™ Studio
                              Custom Swarovski®, Czech glass and gemstone browbands in Circlet, Diadem and Tiara styles. Matching stock pins, bracelets and belts.


                              • #16
                                The description of "great speed" caught my eye before I even opened the video. He needs a lot of work with basic flatwork and his rider needs to learn to relax and eventually lead up to trusting slow and balanced over fences.


                                • #17
                                  Unbalanced horse, unbalanced rider. I would not put them together even on the flat if I could help it. Wouldn't jump until horse was much, much quieter in between fences and rider had a more secure lower leg to help keep the upper body where it should be. Horse may be pulling b/c rider is unable to follow the horse's jump (which is difficult when the horse is jumping like a cow--horse needs to do flatwork flatwork flatwork and then gymnastics gymnastics gymnastics to learn how to handle himself--and, horse may still never be an amateur ride. But he's not trying to kill anyone despite the issues everyone has pointed out, so maybe he's in fact inclined to be quite forgiving).

                                  If he just came in March, from 4 years under a bad rider, I would expect to wait a loooong time before he saw a jump. Like, next spring maybe. He has a lot of baggage to wade through.

                                  Third Charm Event Team


                                  • Original Poster

                                    Thank You! Great advices, I really appreciate them. Basically we are doing all of this - I was getting a bit frustrated as after 3 mo of training there are basically no big results. He is relaxed now with rider, that's for sure, but that's about all.

                                    As I said, we allowed him jump yesterday to make these videos. And then back to basics. He is clever boy, he really is, but this unbalance scares me, and as there were no visible results even after trainer... I really started to worry that by some reason he might be hopeless. But all what you pointed gives us hope! Thank You all!
                                    ** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB*** member


                                    • #19
                                      OK...I hate trainer bashing, and I don't believe in it. With that said, please explain to me the theory behind using draw reins on a heavy (forehand)horse, and pulling the horse behind the vertical. It may just be the angle of the picture, but it appears that the trainer has white draw reins, and is Teaching your horse to be heavy in the hands and behind the vertical (with the hind end trailing). Again, I do not know the whole story here...just my humble opinion (I am talking about the first picture that you posted.) If this is the case, I can see why you have made very little progress in 3 months. I could be wrong though
                                      Certified Spiritual Medium/ Animal Communicator


                                      • #20
                                        This horse is landing heavy b/c his rider isn't releasing over the fence and it basically "balancing" off his mouth the entire ride. Horses don't pull, Riders DO!! To ride a horse that has not naturally or been trained "carry themselves" (ie engaging their haunches) then they NEED a rider that has a secure, educated leg and strong base, who doesn't rely on their hands to manipulate the horse.

                                        I see a horse that stops quite well (as seen by when the horse comes to a stop with the ride barely in the saddle, foot out of the stirrup, and hands slipped to the buckle on the rein.

                                        Even with that, I would like to see proper flatwork with cavaletti and gymnastics [with an educated rider], and wait for course work for sometime.

                                        I am not one who feels 3 mths is that long but you might not being see results if you aren't doing these exercises recommended with an educated, proper ride. You are either training or untraining a horse when working with them, despite the best intentions.

                                        I think you have a nice horse and wish you the best.
                                        www.brydellefarm.com ....developing riders, NOT passengers!
                                        Member of LNHorsemanshipT & Proud of It Clique
                                        "What gets me up every morning is realizing how much more there is still to learn." -GHM