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  • #21
    My comments about 4-H shows was not directed to the OP. I do feel that before "complaining" about judging however, one should know the rules!

    At our 4-H state show I was GOBSMACKED to see several kids, who I know have trainers, come into the medal class and do an "option" with a rollback CROSSING THEIR TRACKS infront of the fence. The only two options that could be done at these fences were to ride it "Straight on" in a forward two, or do a bending line in a short three. I sat there and watched probaly 1/4 of the class jump the first fence and then turn left to come back to the second, in effect getting a technical refusal. Why did their trainers instruct them to do this? The kids and trainers walked the course prior to riding it and one kid, who used to train with me did this "option" that way, I could not believe it. Obviously the trainers working with these kids dont' even know that you CANNOT do this (at least not do it and pin!!). This is a very SIMPLE rule, so the OP is not alone at not knowing it, but all it takes is a few minutes with a rulebook to know these things which will keep your kid form making a bad mistake.
    www.shawneeacres.net

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    • #22
      Originally posted by MHM View Post
      Is this a joke?

      Circling counts the same as a refusal- a major fault.

      Losing a stirrup is also a major fault in an equitation class.
      Joke was my first thought, but you never know.

      And what MHM said.
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      • #23
        It's as if some people on here have it out for the 4-H for posting all these stories.
        Why would people "have it out" for 4-H except unless they'd had poor experiences?

        OP, if your child is going to show horses, it behooves you to not get angry, but to educate yourself on the whys.

        If it's a subjectively-based division, there may not always be a good answer, but the vast majority of the time when people are upset it's because they don't understand the logic and reason behind the judge's decision.
        ---
        They're small hearts.

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        • #24
          I hope your "ranting" has been limited to this BB and was not on display to your daughter or other show attendees.
          I can certainly empathize with being new to a sport and not knowing the rules/finer points in the beginning. I DO NOT understand how anyone can attend a competition and complain about the judging when they are (apparently) pretty ignorant about what is being judged and how the judge is supposed to be making their decisions. Sorry, but that is just poor sportsmanship.

          If you really want to help your daughter become a better competitor - NEVER EVER EVER "rant" about a judge and their opinions in public. Sometimes you may disagree, sometimes you may be ranting "inside". If you must (and I'd recommend that you get educated about the rules before you do so) then quietly make a protest to the show management - but PLEASE don't "teach" your daughter that when she doesn't place/win that it must be the judging that's at fault.

          We've got enough of those threads about "political/unfair hunter judges" already!

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by MintHillFarm View Post
            Losing a stirrup is elimination in the equitation, and circling is a refusal in eq., hunters and jumpers...
            That's news to me. I am the queen of lost stirrups, and I have won plenty of primary colored ribbons even after doing so. I was 4th of 9 in a 2'6" eq over fences class at a rated show, despite losing my stirrup at the end of my opening circle and jumping the first fence without it - right in front of the judge! The stirrup literally just slipped off of my toe, and I grabbed it back as soon as we landed after the fence. Obviously other people made bigger errors than I did.


            I am slightly offended by the suggestion made here that only NC and VA have strong, competitive 4-H programs. TN has a huge program, and the hunter classes at both state and most district shows are judged by USEF judges. A decade ago when I showed 4-H, I have 56 horses in my senior hunter showmanship class at DISTRICT! Most under saddle classes had multiple heats at both district and state. I don't remember what the over fences numbers were like, because Montana and I weren't ready to jump 2'6" at that point, and there were no over fences classes lower than that except for the small ponies. Hunters and jumpers are not combined at the TN 4-H shows. I am still involved when I can be, and things have not changed much since I was in 4-H. Now, the county level shows are a whole different ball game...

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Montanas_Girl View Post
              That's news to me. I am the queen of lost stirrups, and I have won plenty of primary colored ribbons even after doing so. I was 4th of 9 in a 2'6" eq over fences class at a rated show, despite losing my stirrup at the end of my opening circle and jumping the first fence without it - right in front of the judge! The stirrup literally just slipped off of my toe, and I grabbed it back as soon as we landed after the fence. Obviously other people made bigger errors than I did.
              Yup, probably.

              Because the USEF rulebook states:

              EQ110 Class Routine:
              The following constitute major faults and can be cause for elimination: a) a refusal; b) loss of stirrup; c) trotting while on course when not part of a test; and d) loss of reins.
              ---
              They're small hearts.

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              • #27
                It sounds like that 4-H program has left a lot to be desired. One of the great things about showing at that level (at least here in NJ) is that people are VERY helpful. It is supposed to teach you better horsemanship. You have club leaders and in some cases judges that are very approachable (at least at the county level shows here) that can help you understand why something was placed a certain way. I am not saying you approach the judge in a confrontational way right after a class, but perhaps at the end of the day you could have spoken to a leader/official/judge or at least seen score sheets.

                I had opportunities to bring some REALLY nice solid school horses from excellent show barns to my county fair (thanks to being located in Somerset/Hunterdon county). I will never ever forget those kind people who let me take those horses out of lesson programs for 4 days each year. That being said, I didn't get coaching at the shows. I was completely on my own. I did everything myself, so I learned a lot. Part of that learning was from talking to my leader, clinicians, judges, other people's trainers, and the older kids with more show ring experience. You will learn a lot about good sportsmanship that way.

                As others have stated, get your daughter involved in the horse bowl, horse judging, and hippology contests. You will learn soooo much (including rules and scoring at shows). I went to nationals for horse bowl way back when and was so proud when our team got 5th overall in KY. I made lifelong friends during that time and still use the knowledge. Also, 4-H is big on public speaking which is a skill I use all the time (I am in sales, and that gave me the ability to talk to anyone).
                The best sports bras for riders are Anita 5527 and Panache! Size UP in Anita, down in Panache (UK sizing)

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Montanas_Girl View Post
                  That's news to me. I am the queen of lost stirrups, and I have won plenty of primary colored ribbons even after doing so. I was 4th of 9 in a 2'6" eq over fences class at a rated show, despite losing my stirrup at the end of my opening circle and jumping the first fence without it - right in front of the judge! The stirrup literally just slipped off of my toe, and I grabbed it back as soon as we landed after the fence. Obviously other people made bigger errors than I did.


                  I am slightly offended by the suggestion made here that only NC and VA have strong, competitive 4-H programs. TN has a huge program, and the hunter classes at both state and most district shows are judged by USEF judges. A decade ago when I showed 4-H, I have 56 horses in my senior hunter showmanship class at DISTRICT! Most under saddle classes had multiple heats at both district and state. I don't remember what the over fences numbers were like, because Montana and I weren't ready to jump 2'6" at that point, and there were no over fences classes lower than that except for the small ponies. Hunters and jumpers are not combined at the TN 4-H shows. I am still involved when I can be, and things have not changed much since I was in 4-H. Now, the county level shows are a whole different ball game...
                  I was NOT saying that other states did not have good programs! Merely stating that our state does have a very good one. However, many posters here this year have said things like "there show is the ONLY hunter show they have each year" and "7 entries were in our state Jr hunter/jumper class". At our state show we had 75 in our senior divison classes and district (which our district is a smaller one) had over 40 in the showmanship. I KNOW other states have good programs, virginia, alabama, georgis and florida all had outstanding riders/horses at regionals last year. I do not recall Tennessee, but am sure they dont have a "bad" program by any means. I was simply saying I was GLAD to be in a state where things were run well, where we had GOOD judges and competitive, yet sportsmanlike riders that is all. Not saying all otehr states dont have this, but I have heard plenty of "whining" this year about a lot of these state 4-H shows that is all
                  www.shawneeacres.net

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Montanas_Girl View Post
                    That's news to me. I am the queen of lost stirrups, and I have won plenty of primary colored ribbons even after doing so. I was 4th of 9 in a 2'6" eq over fences class at a rated show, despite losing my stirrup at the end of my opening circle and jumping the first fence without it - right in front of the judge!
                    Check your USEF rule book, y'all — losing a stirrup CAN BE cause for an elimination, but it is NOT an automatic elimination.
                    "Go on, Bill — this is no place for a pony."

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by InWhyCee Redux View Post
                      Check your USEF rule book, y'all — losing a stirrup CAN BE cause for an elimination, but it is NOT an automatic elimination.
                      Yep, that was the point I was making in my earlier post.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I read one of the latest post. I want to clarify something and I wouldn't normally do it here.
                        My daughter did the rollback [Eq Medal ]at the line that required to either ride straight or do the bending line.That said, her horse was having issues during schooling and she played it safe.[her choice]The line for her horse rode in 2 strides and would have been[as planned w/ her trainer] an overly bending line to give him 2 good strides , she would have to ride him way up and super compress him to get those strides[he eats the ground]3 would have been not likely to happen for him .Why create a major wreck? She did what she thought was safe and the best ride for her horse. She was rewarded accordingly.Mimi Wroten was our judge and is known to be considerate of horses and riders that ride w/ the best interest of the ride given the horse at the time. Sometimes it isn't about the prize.

                        After ironing out the horses difficulties [ he tends to look down the line in combinations and weirds himself out ] he did go on to win the Eq over fences the next day and continued to have awesome flats.We were happy w/ him.
                        Last edited by Arado*TB; Jul. 25, 2009, 04:05 PM. Reason: content
                        Speak kind words,receive kind echos

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by eqrider1234 View Post
                          Hey now, floridas pretty good too! We had 71 in the Hunter Under Saddle class, that my barnmate got first and I got second in
                          I loved both of those horses! The neck on your horse is my kind of neck too! My kid was 8th in that class. Very good competition this year!
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                          and
                          http://heidalaycavaliers.tripod.com (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels)

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                          • #33
                            And welcome Remy...you can learn alot on here.

                            Remember in Hunters it is all about the horse's style and keeping the same pace. In theory, a perfect round would be scored at 100. A round (like 99.999% of them) that is not so perfect less depending on what you did wrong. Each mistake knocks the score down...like a late lead change, a chip, a hard rub can drop you to the mid 70s.

                            And dropping a rail is not 10 points off, at least in USEF competition in the Hunters. It's more like 40 points off, so is that refusal or circle that is scored as a refusal. With a few other more minor errors, your daughter was sitting at about 45 or so with most of the rest anywhere between 70 and 80 or so. And, no they usually do not announce the numerical scores, that's just how most judges sort it out.

                            Even in 4H, there should be a rule book and it is well worth it to spend a little time trying to understand what they are scored on so next time you'll know what to expect.
                            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                            • #34
                              4-H..Left scars for us...As we only did it because we lived so far out and my daughter at the time was in 4th grade and wanted someone to ride with...Do you coach from the side???That will put her down to last....Out here they aren't to happy with that.

                              I would suggest you get with a local barn for lessons and go with them to shows...
                              Gates Equestrian
                              National Champion Dan Patch sire of USEF/USHJA winning ponies!
                              [url]www.gateseqsmfponies.webs.com/

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Remy 3 Star View Post
                                Thankyou Beezer,for helping a "New show Mom"and to everyone else that helped me understand what she did wrong.
                                if you new to it as in anything then dont discourage your duaghter by being angry or ranting about what if- or is

                                matey pat her on the back every time she enters the ring and say well tried
                                winning is bonus be it placed or comming 1st

                                not getting anything is a bonus as you learn what you do wrong and with expreinces can always improve
                                my point dont go in there to thinking you going to win all the time as you wont and it will upset you or her when you dont
                                go in there to try as trying is winning in itself

                                you may start at the bottom rung of a ladder but each step up one is a far better aim than to go just to the top directly
                                as you learn more

                                the aim is o try if you win big bonus or get placed if you dont then theres always another day another show no biggy

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  I know now that I should have read the USEF rule book before posting my question,and I certainly said "well done" to my Daughter afterwards.
                                  I really should have worded my question differently,but I'm not originally from the U.S.A and my post did come over quite wrong.
                                  I would like to thank the members that did reply with helpful advice,I certainly did not expect the rudeness and ridicule I received in some of the posts.

                                  Thankyou to those members who heped me in a civil way.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Remy, learning the ins-and-outs of showing -- let alone without the added burden of being a loving horse show mom -- is difficult. It would really be in your and your beloved daughter's best interests to find a knowledgeable friend and/or coach to help you along.

                                    You wouldn't, for instance, expect your lovely girl to pursue soccer, softball, gymnastics, swimming or other sports without coaching, correct? Add in another living, breathing, thinking being -- in the reality of her horse -- and you and your daughter need to learn how to communicate in a separate language ... which would be equine.

                                    There is much to learn here, so stick around, read, ask questions and mingle. Although we sometimes snap, it's rare that we actually bite.
                                    Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

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                                    • #38
                                      I'm still puzzled about the medal class y'all are talking about where a broken line could be ridden in a two or a three (or a rollback where you cross your line)...I would assume that if the rules are basically the same as USEF, the jumps would have been labeled "a" and "b" if the judge/course designer wanted two strides, or labeled "5" and "6" or whatever if the judge wanted to see three strides. It's unusual to have a broken in-and-out in a USEF Medal class (though there was a broken two at AHSA medal finals once when I rode there!) and this type of thing makes me wonder, much like the 4H post from a few weeks back where there was an in-and-out in the 2'6" beginner classes.

                                      As someone without any 4H experience, is it typical to have these types of course designs at 4H shows that are not often seen at the rated shows? Is it because of course designers/judges that do this once a year? Not snarking, just genuinely wondering why there seem to be more difficult tests asked than there would be at the USEF rated shows. Which seems strange to me, because it sounds like many of the competitors are doing this without coaches who know the rules, or without coaches at all, and it seems to me that the courses should be a bit more straightforward.
                                      Ristra Ranch Equestrian Jewelry

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by eqrider1234 View Post
                                        Hey now, floridas pretty good too! We had 71 in the Hunter Under Saddle class, that my barnmate got first and I got second in and all the other Hunter and eq classes had at least 40-60 riders in each. It was a really well run state show its a shame we cannot host regionals. We also had a good judge I am pretty sure she was USEF R, unlike the year I went to regionals in Tenn and there was a aqha judge.... Thats why 4h gets a bad name.
                                        I have been in 4-H for YEARS, now i'm an alumni. I just now realized I have never seen regionals in Florida. Is there a reason for this?

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                                        • #40
                                          #vandy

                                          The thought occured to me also, maybe somebody out there knows the rules better then I do?

                                          Isn't a two stride always considered an a-b of the same jump? Whereas a three stride would be marked as two consecutive jumps? And isn't crossing your own line (unless you were specifically asked to do so in a test) always a refusal?

                                          For a split second I thought, (lets imagine that its a hard bending three to the left) that instead of circling to the right and crossing your line one could possibly get away with cantering all the way around the jump holding the left lead and get a clean shot with out crossing ones own line. But then again isn't passing the jump also to be judged as a refusal (as in running out)?
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