• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Bits other than a 3 ring for a freight train

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Bits other than a 3 ring for a freight train

    I have a horse that rides like a freight train. She is 7 and I just got her just a little while ago so I am doing smaller stuff (1.20 meters) with her while I get the hang of her. Meanwhile, because the fences are small for her, she can get quite playful and tends to get strong. VERY strong.

    I am riding her currently with a plain snaffle and those CWD reins which fix your hands in place (they have handle things), as well as a running martingale. The reins are a huge help (was losing my reins on course all the time because she would pull and snatch them after a fence).

    I am working on getting her right on the flat, so I don't need any suggestions there ..... but in the meantime, coach says that I need a stronger bit. He suggested maybe a 3 ring. I'm not crazy about 3-ring bits, and was wondering what other bits might be good for a strong puller.

    The thing is, I don't want to get too strong of a bit because she is a heffalump German warmblood who loves a LOT of contact when she jumps. And if I get too strong of a bit, I am afraid that it might be too much bit given the contact that she requires.

    So these are the bits that are coming to mind :

    Kimberwicke
    Baucher
    3 ring (pessoa)

    Thoughts? Other suggestions? Experiences?

    Thanks!


    Edit: just to clarify, the pulling is more downward ....

  • #2
    My mare that can get quite strong (same situation, doesn't like jumping the smaller fences) goes really nicely in a mullen mouth happy mouth 2-ring. She did not go well in a single jointed, but she really likes the mullen mouth. I use 2 sets of reins, I mostly use the 'snaffle' rein and only bring in the leverage rein when I really need it.

    Comment


    • #3
      how about a good old fashioned true gag where you can put a rein on for direct contact and have the second rein as the gag for those moments when the occasion calls for it?

      That's always my favorite option for a horse that roots before or after a fence, because it can be strong to mild depending on your use of it.
      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Those are both really good suggestions, but I am afraid with the reins I am using (CWD with handle thingys) it might be too complicated with two sets of reins. Dunno, maybe I'm wrong? With normal reins, I cannot hang on ! With two sets, it might be worse.

        Comment


        • #5
          An unstable bit?

          How about something like a Waterford? You could also try a thin, french loose ring snaffle, but the Waterford, built from more links of chain, is the more extreme example of an unstable bit.

          I have had success with those for particular types of pullers and personalities. This bit could make things better or worse for your mare.

          They work well for horses who first seek contact and then generally get heavier and heavier. The ideal Waterford candidate is smart, secure and changes her mind in a pretty predictable fashion. This kind of horse is one who needs to be set up to have to carry herself because the bit and your hands don't create a steady wall.

          The kind of horse this kind of bit will make worse is the scared, "make a big, panicky move, ask questions later" horse. So the one who throws her head and even shoulders around in a huge when when she comes up against a bit she doesn't like will not benefit from a Waterford.

          The key to riding with a Waterford is also in the way the rider uses her hands. I think this is a bit that depends on contrast. Contact and support while the horse is going well must be minimal. The minute the horse starts to get heavy, the rider need to apply more pressure rather quickly, especially on the side that starts to feel heavy, and then let go just as quickly when the horse comes back.

          To know if the Waterford is for your mare, you perhaps need to decide how quickly she goes from a bit too heavy to freight train. If she is mentally secure, a horse with a "big personality" she may benefit from a bit that feels complicated to deal with even if she is quick about becoming a freight train.

          I hope this makes sense.
          The armchair saddler
          Politically Pro-Cat

          Comment


          • #6
            Could you post a link to the CWD handle reins? I'm not quite understanding. Is your hand going through some sort of strap to keep it in place?

            As for bits, I would stear away from a Kimberwick at all costs. I love the idea of the "true gag", as well as the 3 ring, but you might need to learn to use two reins.

            The whole "handle rein" thing sounds odd to me, as it doesn't allow for adjustments.

            You could move up to a corkscrew for jumping and then a plain snaffle to flat. Since the heaviness isn't such an issue there, having two bits might work well for this mare. Almost all the jumpers I know have two separate bits, one for flat and one for jump, and the extra power, since it's ONLY used when jumping, doesn't do any damage to their mouths. Just a little extra brake.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Thanks, mvp that was a great (and clear!) post.

              It sounds like a waterford might be something to try. Despite her strength and pulling, she is really even tempered and not the panicky type. Her 'big moves' are always towards a fence (like going down a line) and sometimes dragging in the corners. She's not the panicky pulling type at all, more of a steady puller which can get steadily worse by the end of the course. It's not sudden moves or throwing her head, it's just a steady pull. She has a lot of scope and a ton of strength (father is world cup level, she will do at least 1.40 meter classes), I am more dealing with brute strength than anything else.

              I have a pretty soft hand (or so I've been told ), and despite her pulling I do keep an even contact. Is the waterford really harsh? I do want to avoid making her back off too much. No, I don't like pulling BUT I do not mind (and even prefer) a horse that brings me to a fence, if that makes any sense...

              From what I have described, does she sound like a candidate for a waterford to you?

              Someone had told me that baucher can be good for pullers as well. Do you know which would be a harsher bit?

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by "A"HunterGal View Post
                Could you post a link to the CWD handle reins? I'm not quite understanding. Is your hand going through some sort of strap to keep it in place?

                As for bits, I would stear away from a Kimberwick at all costs. I love the idea of the "true gag", as well as the 3 ring, but you might need to learn to use two reins.

                The whole "handle rein" thing sounds odd to me, as it doesn't allow for adjustments.
                This is the best picture I could find (click on zoom to get a better view):

                http://www.padd.fr/boutique_equitation_Z00122.htm#

                (Sorry, it's in French!)

                The reins actually do allow for adjustments, since there are several 'handles' so you can change rein length.

                Curious -- why would you stay away from a kimberwicke?

                Comment


                • #9
                  My pony used to be a freight train. He has never had a very sensitive mouth. I tried a lot of things on him including a baucher(didnt work--a baucher has no more stopping power than a snaffle IMO). What did work is a twisted wire. NOT the kind of really thin twisted wire that barrel racers use or anything. It is a tad bit thinner than a regular snaffle so he can feel it more, and the twist gives me those extra brakes that I need. My pony is much happier now--no more fighting and jerking to try and get him to stop. We are able to communicate better and there is much less frustration.

                  ETA: To address the concern about contact, with the twisted wire, I havent had any issues with my guy not wanting to come onto the bit. He is still soft and accepts contact on the flat and over fences.
                  "To do something that you feel in your heart that's great, you need to make a lot of mistakes. Anything that is successful is a series of mistakes." -B.J. Armstrong

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Glad you got it.

                    3eme-- from your original post I thought you might "get" the novel I wrote.

                    I must say I'm too old (and my current horse too broke) to have figured out how and when to use a baucher. I can't speak of them with nearly the sophistication you would want.

                    It sounds like you could try a Waterford, or really the whole "the bit is unstable" strategy with a different bit if you don't have one of these lying around. That comes in part from the way you use your hands. This mare might be the "contrast maven" one who wants you to travel with a loop in your reins unless "you have something to say." Perhaps she needs to be abandoned while carrying herself so that the bit means something appreciably different when you pick up contact.

                    You may have a couple of ugly experimental rides on the flat or over poles where you leave that loop in your reins, invite her to get quick or strong, pick up the reins to ask her to rock back and then set her on her ass once or twice if she doesn't say "yes ma'am" to the rein pressure you give her.

                    I know it sounds unorthodox, but sometimes smart, forward, "big personality-ed" horse do well when they are taught to hover behind the bit. That way, the bit and educated contact you have offered doesn't come across as an annoying inconvenience. Instead, the new deal you offer them is "You get to do what you want until I ask for something different. In exchange, you need to answer immediately when I do. I won't ask unless I mean it." You didn't set up the situation that requires this, she did. Now you are running out of hardware and techniques to get the "come back now" response you need, so you need to think outside the correct box.

                    Think of a guy like Jimmy Williams who was willing to draw on whatever strategy worked for his horses. This one-- the "hovering behind the bit" idea-- comes from the western world, and so long as you have engagement from the hind end (which I'm quite sure you do), it doesn't really matter how you ride in your hand so long as it works for your horse.

                    What you describe in the lines speaks volumes to the problem. I think it's really hard to land with a strong, going horse, know you have no effective half halt that works Now, and then not get into the pulling contest. You have to do what you have to do the get out of the line alive, right?

                    So I know you don't want or need a flat work lecture. But read what I suggested above about teaching this mare a basically different relationship with the bit and see if that might help.
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                      speak of them with nearly the sophistication you would want.

                      It sounds like you could try a Waterford, or really the whole "the bit is unstable" strategy with a different bit if you don't have one of these lying around. .

                      My strong opinionated mare loved her loose ring cherry roller. It is another "unstable" kind of bit. She would take a contact on it but not run through it and not throw a hissy fit if I gave her a half halt. I did discover that she likes "fatter" bits as well. Some times you have sort out what sort of shape their mouth is...i.e. do they do better with thin or fat bits.

                      http://www.bitofbritain.com/Loose_Ri..._Bit_p/732.htm

                      Alternatively to the bits....you could go with one of the levered nose bands. I've never used one but they are popular with many train like event horses.

                      http://www.bitofbritain.com/Nunn_Fin...and_p/0080.htm
                      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        are your mare and my gelding cousins because that's what my boy does! He's huge, he's a freight train and he likes to go downhill.... he's trainable and he's learning but God is he hard to ride!! (He also has a neck like a giraffe and is about twice as long as the avg horse...)

                        We've had him in a slow twist gag with a figure eight for a while and that worked well, but the figure eight couldn't keep his mouth shut - he's very adept at finding ways to avoid work so then we switched him to a short shank (2 ring) myler, with the rawhide noseband, but for Parker it was too much, it made him very nervous/upset that I had that much control - maybe your less-emotional horse (mine is emo to the extreme ) would do well in this?

                        Right now, Park's going fabulously in a single twisted loose ring with a crank noseband and a flash. It's slightly less than enough bit, but because he can't avoid the bid with the crank/flash, he's going really really well and I can actually control him and be able to fine tune our rounds.

                        It's taken a lot of experimenting with the different bits to figure out what will make him less of a train in. Maybe one of these will help your girl? I'd try everything but the Myler first, unless you can borrow one to try, since I paid ~$110 for that bit

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If your mare is so strong that you need to use those reins, I would go much stronger then a snaffle! The hardest part is keeping her (forward) like a magnet on the jump. I've recently had this "issue" with a horse in training - I want the horses to take me to the jump but when you can't get the numbers you want down a line - that's not fun or safe at 1.40!
                          Did you ask the old riders what they showed her in?
                          I understand in France you have a lot of bit options at 1.20 (unlike in NL or DE)
                          What about a pelham with a converter? (I know that sounds so "kindergarden" but you know that the last two year in Germany the young horses are allowed pelhams? - it used to be 3 rings but it's been changed)
                          You can get the nice converters from CWD which allow you to "adjust" the tention between how much leverage you use on the top vs. bottom.
                          Gags and 2/3 rings could also work, and you can ride in a gag with one rein when you want!
                          www.show-jumper.com

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by july View Post
                            If your mare is so strong that you need to use those reins, I would go much stronger then a snaffle! The hardest part is keeping her (forward) like a magnet on the jump. I've recently had this "issue" with a horse in training - I want the horses to take me to the jump but when you can't get the numbers you want down a line - that's not fun or safe at 1.40!
                            Did you ask the old riders what they showed her in?
                            I understand in France you have a lot of bit options at 1.20 (unlike in NL or DE)
                            What about a pelham with a converter? (I know that sounds so "kindergarden" but you know that the last two year in Germany the young horses are allowed pelhams? - it used to be 3 rings but it's been changed)
                            You can get the nice converters from CWD which allow you to "adjust" the tention between how much leverage you use on the top vs. bottom.
                            Gags and 2/3 rings could also work, and you can ride in a gag with one rein when you want!
                            Yeah, woulda asked the former owner. But she was like 13 and did really little stuff with her, getting dragged around at 1.0 meters, until she fell off and broke her arm. So I'm thinking, I wouldn't want to follow her example bit-wise (or otherwise!)

                            Agreed about the safety thing. I mean, leaving out a stride now at 1.20, OKAY...but when the fences get higher, yeah I think I'd like to avoid that.

                            Pelham might be a good idea. Hadn't thought of that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The first thing I would try would be a gag. After that, a pelham, probably either a happy mouth or rubber mullen, possibly with a converter if you're set on using those CWD reins. Both will help with lifting her up, both in front of the fence, and on the back side, where it sounds like she's getting away from you.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yes a pelham would definitely help you! Your horse sounds just like mine. I actually ordered a custom bit from a tack shop at HITS Saugerties. It is a pelham with a hinged mouthpiece instead of a regular snaffle. It keeps my mares head up with more control then a regular pelham.

                                http://www.equusport.com/item.php?it...category_id=60

                                This is the exact bit I ordered. Mine was $250 but you can get it hear for $300, Pricey but I love it!
                                http://www.youtube.com/user/meleenbeen

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by 3eme View Post
                                  I have a pretty soft hand (or so I've been told ), and despite her pulling I do keep an even contact. Is the waterford really harsh? I do want to avoid making her back off too much. No, I don't like pulling BUT I do not mind (and even prefer) a horse that brings me to a fence, if that makes any sense...
                                  The waterford isn't particularly harsh, you just have to know how to use it correctly or it looses it's effectiveness as the horse becomes more accustomed to it.

                                  My old mare sounds just like yours, big german warmblood that loves to jump and really drags you down lines. We would alternate between a waterford and pelham, sometimes flatting in a slow twist full cheek for those 'good days' when she was cooperating.
                                  Faibel Farms Custom Fly Bonnets
                                  Like us on Facebook!

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by neigh.neigh View Post
                                    Yes a pelham would definitely help you! Your horse sounds just like mine. I actually ordered a custom bit from a tack shop at HITS Saugerties. It is a pelham with a hinged mouthpiece instead of a regular snaffle. It keeps my mares head up with more control then a regular pelham.

                                    http://www.equusport.com/item.php?it...category_id=60

                                    This is the exact bit I ordered. Mine was $250 but you can get it hear for $300, Pricey but I love it!
                                    dangerous little website you have there....

                                    thanks!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      All the bit suggestions sound fine, but am I the only one who has a problem with those reins?? It looks so easy to get your hand caught in a fall and get dragged around! Isn't this exactly why we DON"T loop the reins around our hands? What if you get dumped into a jump and need them to brace your fall, but guess what, your wrist with through the "handle" and now you are essentially tied to the horse?

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by "A"HunterGal View Post
                                        All the bit suggestions sound fine, but am I the only one who has a problem with those reins?? It looks so easy to get your hand caught in a fall and get dragged around! Isn't this exactly why we DON"T loop the reins around our hands? What if you get dumped into a jump and need them to brace your fall, but guess what, your wrist with through the "handle" and now you are essentially tied to the horse?
                                        Your hands aren't wrapped up in the reins, and if you fall you just let go, like regular reins. No more dangerous than stirrups, really.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X