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how can fix this.... or our we doomed forever!

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  • how can fix this.... or our we doomed forever!

    My horse is new to jumping, been training over fences for about 3 ish months. And as jumps have started to get larger i have started to notice a dangler, well not exactly... he just snaps his knees at different places...
    Here are some pics, ill try and upload them somewhere else for all you non facebook people.

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...4400021&ref=mf (this isint me, its a student helping to get pics, but he goes pretty much the same for me)

    also here is a video of a grid
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJmhF3HdnXE

    So her is my question, is there a way to fix it and get his jump better? even knees?

    We are doing grids, about once a week and otherwise the other day we jump we do lines and other small single fences... Every other day we flat.

    any suggestions or are we doomed to have crazy knees forever?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by hoops04; Jun. 5, 2009, 11:09 PM.

  • #2
    3 MONTHS?????
    You're training him to dangle! He has no reason not to. The fences are too tiny ( and the distances in the grid appear to be too short.
    Trot over single larger fences and give him a reason to actually jump.

    I know that I'm a dinosaur, but when we started young horses, we expected them to be able to jump 4 feet in 4 weeks. If they could do that comfortably, we backed off and worked over a lot of smaller (though still big enough to require actual jumping ) fences. We started them OF in May and they were able to show over 3'6" and hunt and jump everything out hunting by September. ( This was before there were divisions at lower heights for horses. I already admitted to being a dinosaur)

    Of about 30 horses, I only remember 2 that couldn't do 4 in 4, and we cut our losses, rather than spend all summer working on a horse that didn't have enough basic athletic ability to do what we needed.

    Horses learn what we teach them. If, by working over tiny fences, we teach them that they can take off from anywhere, do not need to get airborne, fold, or use their bodies over a fence, that is what they learn. If you want this horse to actually use himself over a fence, you need do give him a fence where that is required.

    He looks like he has a good attitude, now add the altitude.
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

    Comment


    • #3
      You need to roll the groundlines out. A LOT. Some of those photos are wild. I don't know how he managed to get as close as he did to those jumps and not crash right thru them. I don't think I've ever seen a horse get so close to a jump as that. Seriously.

      I can't watch the video (my computer is sick) but if Madeline says the grid is too tight, I'd believe it. Especially seeing how he's jumping from underneath the jumps.

      He should be taking off a good 2 feet earlier than where he is in most of those shots. Roll the groundlines out to encourage him to do this, and ride to the right spot. Don't bury him at the base of the jump.

      He's not picking up his knees because he can't. There's not enough room and time for him to do that. The fact that he doesn't knock the jump down every single time is miraculous. Work on getting the right distances, and when you can do that, the jumps need to go up (and your takeoff spot should adjust accordingly.) With jumps that little, he doesn't have any reason to pick up his feet. But if you crank up the jumps and bury him like like that, somebody's going to get hurt.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thanks! i will try it!

        I should mention, he has been in training for about 3 months, although now looking at it, its 4... but thats total training time, not just jumping! I was keeping him low because he bowed a tendon on the track and didnt want to hurt it again, but he is fine, there is no reason not to start jumping real jumps! just an over protective new mom! Thanks so much for the suggestions I will start trotting larger fences soon in our next session!

        Also.... not trying to be rude! im listening to everything! He is actually better with me, in these pictures it is a student from my barn riding, it was her frst time on him. With me he actually does jump from good distances, shes used to a big ole fat pony, she did what she could....

        These are me riding him, i didnt post them originally because he isint dangleing, but feel free to rip me to shreads too!
        http://www.facebook.com/video/video....4&id=114400021

        Comment


        • #5
          He needs to jump up, build a grid oxer to an over and give him some space in the middle to build a gap to the fence, and add a trot rail in front of the first fence and show him how to use his body not just canter over the fences. It's how you ruin a good horse that could jump a good fence by jumping tiny all the time they get lazy. If the rider stays out of his way in front of and in the air and using the proper exercises he should naturally use himself well, if not than that's just how he will jump. Improving form is really hard to do. Good luck with it
          Courtney Palmer
          "Laurentide"
          "Pandora"
          RIP "Noble Gesture"

          Comment


          • #6
            Would you consider having someone who has experience training him o/f? That might help.

            Comment


            • #7
              Not to be rude, but YIKES!!! You DO NOT need to be jumping this horse any bigger right now. PLEASE do not raise the height of these fences until you or the person riding your horse knows how to find a correct distance. This horse is being burried to all of these fences. The grid is set WAY too short. I know the fences are low, but the horse needs to be back a few feet from the base to jump it. I don't know how your horse is making it out of these spots without crashing through the fences. Obviously your horse has some talent. The knees are a result of the short spots, which are also known as "chipping" if you were being judged. Your horse will never have good form until you allow him to stand back from the jump and jump up. This does not involve raising the height of the fence, but rather getting him on a rythm and in front of leg. This does not involve running at the fence. Based on the analysis from your original post, you need to RUN to a professional in your area. What you're doing now is ruining your horse, who by the way is very cute and willing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Agree entirely with GallopGirl. The grid is too short, the distances are wrong, and you're setting your horse up for failure.

                It can be fixed! Just take the advice to heart.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was expecting some teeny weeny distances from the descriptions here

                  They aren't THAT bad.

                  But what's going on in the green horse has a bigger natural stride and doesn't know how to shorten on his own, and the rider isn't asking him to, so the distances ARE too short.

                  What is the distance at the bounce, and what are the 2 distances after that?

                  I would STOP jumping little verticals though - they do nothing to improve a horse's form and can cause him to develop bad habits which will take longer to fix than they did to develop. At the very least the post-bounce jumps in this particular setup need to be wider oxers - not taller, but wider.

                  Or, set up skinny Xs - those can be set very low because they cause a horse to jump higher than the middle dictates due to the sides of the X encroaching on the room through which he has to jump.

                  Little jumps like this, without any incentive to cause the horse to rock back and jump over the fence instead of just across it, teach poor habits once they get past the point of understanding that they jump what they're pointed at.

                  It's a big canter stride, no incentive to pick the knees up, much less even them out, and by not asking and/or causing him to rock back, he's jumping over his shoulder which is just asking for trouble.

                  That's why this grid, as set, is doing more harm than good.
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When you say a "student" was helping you, does that mean you are the trainer of this horse?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Along with the things mentioned above (which I completely, utterly, entirely agree with), he's very downhill. He can't possibly jump well if he's dragging around on the forehand.

                      I would recommend sending him off for a month or two to a GOOD trainer. One with a lot of dressage experience and experience starting young horses. He's got to get off the forehand, he's got to have someone who can put him to a decent spot, and he's got to have properly adjusted grids to get better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think you can blame this horse for just cantering over the top of these tiny x's. He shows good rhythm, only at the last does he jump over himself.

                        I have a big, quiet warmblood with a huge stride. He canters over top of anything under 3 ft(because it's easier)which is the height of my ambition. My instructor sets grids with tight bounces which get him using his mind and body. We also jump and turn into his "low knee"-this strengthens and lifts his weak side, and help get his knees even. These jumping exercises go along with LOTS of flat work-especially transitions-embrace that canter/sitting trot transition! That will help his balance, and strengthen him equally on both sides.

                        All that is a long way to say you need a knowledgeable trainer, who can teach him to use his body, and teach you how to ride him. Just be patient and let him learn-it's so much fun when you "get it" as a team-good luck!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GallopGirl View Post
                          Not to be rude, but YIKES!!! You DO NOT need to be jumping this horse any bigger right now. PLEASE do not raise the height of these fences until you or the person riding your horse knows how to find a correct distance. This horse is being burried to all of these fences. The grid is set WAY too short. I know the fences are low, but the horse needs to be back a few feet from the base to jump it. I don't know how your horse is making it out of these spots without crashing through the fences. Obviously your horse has some talent. The knees are a result of the short spots, which are also known as "chipping" if you were being judged. Your horse will never have good form until you allow him to stand back from the jump and jump up. This does not involve raising the height of the fence, but rather getting him on a rythm and in front of leg. This does not involve running at the fence. Based on the analysis from your original post, you need to RUN to a professional in your area. What you're doing now is ruining your horse, who by the way is very cute and willing.
                          This. The truth hurts, especially in the horse world, but you asked. I didn't think it was possible to bury a horse that deep into a fence.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            OH MY..I don't even do jumping but was thinking that looks like an accident waiting to happen. I'll defer to others here with the experience but I will say that your horse looks to be a lovely, willing and very patient partner. I think if you follow these folks advice, you will have a nice jumper as he appears to be trying so very hard to get over the jumps.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Boy some people on this board can REALLY overreact can't they This cute horse is just stepping over some REALY small fences and the distances probably set a bit short, but honestly not nearly as bad as what I expecetd from the comments! This horse looks disinterested in what you are doing, but willing and quiet. I jsut think you need to "up the ante" a bit. He may never be a spectacular jumper, form wise, but he doesn't look dangerous at all. I would work on setting up a grid with a biiger "X" two stride to a ramped oxer and see what happens. I'd also use take off and landing poles to help sharpen him up.
                              www.shawneeacres.net

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I may get jumped all over for this, but it's what works for me, so I'll give you my 2 cents.

                                When you first start jumping a horse you start low to build confidence and gradually build the height to the horses ability, rhythm and willingness to the jump.

                                When starting a young horse I personally stay out of the way and let them make all the mistakes they need to, to learn the distances and develop a form and rhythm for themselves. This means staying in a 3-piont and riding at a trot into a fence on ZERO contact, guiding with an open rein.

                                Most horses do not need our help on anything 3' or under. They do not need us to "find their spot” or judge their distance or find their pace. They need to develop this stuff on their own. Further on when they have mastered a straight line and a good distance, I do however set up rather large cross poles to develop their bascule and develop a roundness to their jump. By the time I'm riding a course my horses can jump it without me.

                                Have you ever seen a Grand Prix where the rider gets ejected and the horse continues going on and jumping what's in front of them. That's what I'm taking about.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  THIS should be an interesting thread......

                                  Originally posted by Chylli View Post
                                  I may get jumped all over for this, but it's what works for me, so I'll give you my 2 cents.

                                  When you first start jumping a horse you start low to build confidence and gradually build the height to the horses ability, rhythm and willingness to the jump.

                                  When starting a young horse I personally stay out of the way and let them make all the mistakes they need to, to learn the distances and develop a form and rhythm for themselves. This means staying in a 3-piont and riding at a trot into a fence on ZERO contact, guiding with an open rein.

                                  Most horses do not need our help on anything 3' or under. They do not need us to "find their spot” or judge their distance or find their pace. They need to develop this stuff on their own. Further on when they have mastered a straight line and a good distance, I do however set up rather large cross poles to develop their bascule and develop a roundness to their jump. By the time I'm riding a course my horses can jump it without me.

                                  Have you ever seen a Grand Prix where the rider gets ejected and the horse continues going on and jumping what's in front of them. That's what I'm taking about.
                                  OMG! You are OLD SCHOOL!! I'm lovin' it!! There has been a bit of chatter all over the place regarding this issue. Can't wait to see how others respond, where's Denny??
                                  Earthdogs, you gotta dig 'em!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Chylli View Post
                                    I may get jumped all over for this, but it's what works for me, so I'll give you my 2 cents.

                                    When you first start jumping a horse you start low to build confidence and gradually build the height to the horses ability, rhythm and willingness to the jump.

                                    When starting a young horse I personally stay out of the way and let them make all the mistakes they need to, to learn the distances and develop a form and rhythm for themselves. This means staying in a 3-piont and riding at a trot into a fence on ZERO contact, guiding with an open rein.

                                    Most horses do not need our help on anything 3' or under. They do not need us to "find their spot” or judge their distance or find their pace. They need to develop this stuff on their own. Further on when they have mastered a straight line and a good distance, I do however set up rather large cross poles to develop their bascule and develop a roundness to their jump. By the time I'm riding a course my horses can jump it without me.

                                    Have you ever seen a Grand Prix where the rider gets ejected and the horse continues going on and jumping what's in front of them. That's what I'm taking about.
                                    Agreed. But, you need someone knowledgeable enough to stay out of the way and at least set the young horse up for success by properly adjusting distances. This little guy isn't figuring things out on his own, he's coping with whatever bad spot he's being forced into. Big difference.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Coppers mom View Post
                                      Agreed. But, you need someone knowledgeable enough to stay out of the way and at least set the young horse up for success by properly adjusting distances. This little guy isn't figuring things out on his own, he's coping with whatever bad spot he's being forced into. Big difference.
                                      Yes, I agree totally. Without 'someone' knowledgeable setting fences, you're screwed. It's great to have another person to do that. Or, go ahead of time and set your own. Also, there are reputable trainers who have published books with distances spelled out for you. Nothing like turning to one of the old timers for advise.

                                      I think this horse is just jumping like he's still trying to figure things out, and certainly, some good basic lines and distances will encourage him and give him some confidence. Another thing, with honest distances, the rider too will know how many strides between fences, therefore, will learn where her take-off spot is, and become more comfortable with it. Another thing that will help rider and horse, set up various fences out "Cross County" complete with ground rail 9-10' out on both sides. This is a no brainer, your take off is set up for you and the horse will look for the rail on the other side, step in, jump over, stride over and canter on! Its a simple exercise, but rhythmic and fun. Teaches a simple basic of understanding of what is going on beneath you. I also liked the thought of another poster in using the steeper cross rails. I have a photo of an example that I may post later if I can.

                                      Hope this gives some food for thought.......
                                      Earthdogs, you gotta dig 'em!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by centeur View Post
                                        OMG! You are OLD SCHOOL!! I'm lovin' it!! There has been a bit of chatter all over the place regarding this issue. Can't wait to see how others respond, where's Denny??
                                        I didn't think I was "Old School". This is just they way we all ride, in our group. I don't know any other way.

                                        As far as Distances in lines, when I trot in and canter out, say a 4 strde, I still stay in the mane with an opening rein to keep them straight. If they rush a few times then I may sit up a little straighter and deeper in the line and slow them with my seat and back but I still don't have contact on them.

                                        I should say I have had several different horses that I have done this with and with OTTB it takes a longer time to keep them from rushing the second fence, I still never pull out of the line. I just ride it out and maybe school the canter after I land and make my corner. I also don't jump and jump and jump over again. I may do a line and then school some different transitions. Some OTTB build and build and build and then you are riding a frieght train.
                                        Last edited by Chylli; Jun. 7, 2009, 03:33 PM. Reason: Da moment!

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