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Explain this Hunter position thing to me, please.

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  • Explain this Hunter position thing to me, please.

    Okay, being an admitted DQ, I'm not super well versed in all things H/J. BUT, once upon a time I was an eventer and so I do have some jumping experience from that forum.

    Can someone tell me why in hunter people are folded so much at the hips over itsy bitsy teeny weeny fences so that they look like they're laying on their horse's neck? The jumper riders don't even look that closed--unless they're over a huge oxer.

    I'm confused. Is this a style over function thing? I mean, closing the hip is correct from what I know, but nearly laying on the horses neck? That just seems to be a bit of artifical and extreme.



    It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

    [This message was edited by Velvet on Feb. 11, 2003 at 11:07 AM.]
    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Okay, being an admitted DQ, I'm not super well versed in all things H/J. BUT, once upon a time I was an eventer and so I do have some jumping experience from that forum.

    Can someone tell me why in hunter people are folded so much at the hips over itsy bitsy teeny weeny fences so that they look like they're laying on their horse's neck? The jumper riders don't even look that closed--unless they're over a huge oxer.

    I'm confused. Is this a style over function thing? I mean, closing the hip is correct from what I know, but nearly laying on the horses neck? That just seems to be a bit of artifical and extreme.



    It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

    [This message was edited by Velvet on Feb. 11, 2003 at 11:07 AM.]
    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

    Comment


    • #3
      Hunters are supposed to jump "round".

      Some riders are under the impression (and I don't knw whether there is any truth to it or not) that collapsing on the hors's neck makes the horse lower his head over the top of the jump, and look "rounder".
      Janet

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Ah, so there is supposed to be some function behind this thing then?

        It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

        Comment


        • #5
          In general it started because some very successful professionals have funky equitation. It works for them, and horses jump well for them. They have the strength to not interfere with a horse's jump, and in fact as Janet said usually get the best possible jump out of the horse.

          Amateurs and juniors copy the "pose" with mixed results. It's usually not a conscious thing - no one really says oh I think I'll practice laying on my horse's neck today.

          *****************************
          Custom Needlepoint Belts

          Comment


          • #6
            Okay, being an admitted H/J, I'm not super well versed in all things DQ. BUT, once upon a time I was on the dressage board and so I do have some Dressage from that forum.

            Can someone tell me why in DQ land people are poo disturbing so much at the H/J forum over itsy bitsy teeny weeny details so that they look like they're becoming regulars here? The jumper riders don't worry that much--unless they're over a huge oxer.

            I'm confused. Is this a dressage over hunter thing? I mean, poo disturbing is correct from what I know, but nearly becoming an H/J poster? That just seems to be a bit of artifical and extreme.

            **Very, very, very tongue in cheek! I mean no harm, but I couldn't resist.

            Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping -Julius Hare

            Comment


            • #7
              It looks so awful and it is SO hard to unlearn after being taught to ride that all my life. It took a year of screaming by my coach at me until I stopped. I still relapse from time to time, and it makes him crazy...when he starts yelling at me in English, I know that I'm in trouble. It got to where all the other students(who don't speak a word of English) learned what "Don't throw your upper body" meant

              March 14th 2003. D(idi)-Day
              aserejè ja de jè de jebe tu de jebere seibiunouva,
              majavi an de bugui an de buididipi...I loff the ignorance.

              Centre Equestre de la Houssaye
              ---WHX---

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Small Change, this is an honest question. I only shake sticks at DQs and DQwannabes. I'm seriously wondering about this. It looks so funky when I see it and I don't remember seeing in when I was younger and idolized a lot of H/J riders. (Oh, and DQs and HPs have so much attitude in common, I can't see where any cross pollinating is required. )

                Medievalist, I know I got back into a bit of jumping over some low x-country fences about 8 years or so ago and found that I was throwing myself at the fence and ending up in that position. It's a bit too easy to do, isn't it?

                It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                Comment


                • #9
                  First and foremost, there are a lot of people that throw themselves up on the neck, pitch themselves at the base of the fence, and just otherwise do all sorts of things that do not help a horse have a nice jump.

                  It should be noted that if you are judging one of these rounds, and the horse still manages to put in 8 great fences, it can safely be assumed the horse is extremely talented.

                  But there is a small group of professionals that can make it look like a horse is knocking them out of the tack because the horse jumps so well, when in truth you could probably do your ironing on him, he's so flat. But if you watch these riders in action you will notice that they are very quiet at the base of the fence, and their center of balance is exactly where it should be (instead of around the ears in the aforementioned example). This is critical since you can make or break a horse's jump at the base. You can't hardly get in their way at the top of the fence (assuming you don't yank their face off).

                  Of course all the great masses see are pictures of riders at the top of the fence, where it can be hard to tell the two types of riders apart. But it is pretty cool to watch the good ones at work. They do put the "show" back in the horse show! Why, it's almost high drama.

                  "To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)
                  Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    So, does this sort of position impact your scores? Isn't that judged too?

                    It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nope.

                      Rider position is not supposed to be scored in a hunter class.
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No the training divisions are not judged on any equitation. But I imagine there is some "horsemanship" in there. Trainers can only go in open classes. I think some shows have a special trainer only equitation class. It is pretty classic.

                        Question for you: Taking in to account leaning back pulling and spuring are all done at the same time during dressage, how does that make a horse move correctly?

                        (I have been to the WEG so I have seen real dressage, but never at anywhere in the US. And I know it is pretty rare in my area.)

                        Most premature departures are pilot error.
                        \"Anger is the only thing that won\'t go away by losing it.\" - Jack Nicholson in Anger Management


                        www.rozeroz.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And in some instances, the rider cannot help looking like that. Some horses actually do jump so round that maintaining "perfect" equitation is impossible.

                          "Keep your stick on the ice." (Red Green)
                          \"Horses change lives. They give our young people confidence and self esteem, they provide peace and tranquility to troubled souls, they give us hope.\"
                          - T. Robinson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
                            So, does this sort of position impact your scores? Isn't that judged too?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Oh dear god, no! At least not in any class designated "hunter" or "jumper". As long as you and your mount don't part company, your position is not judged formally. "Equitation" is a whole 'nuther ball game. Then position is king.

                            Just as an FYI, a professional is eligible to enter any class not labeled "adult amateur" or Amatuer Owner" (excluding the more tricky issue of working students and the junior/childrens ranks).

                            "To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)
                            Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think a lot of people, regardless of inadvertantly copying the pros, also have this idea that the horse needs them OFF its back, which it does of course, but not to the extent that some people do it. It's easy to forget that the upward thrust of the horse jumping will "lift" you out of the saddle, if you are prepared for it, and you don't need to exaggeratedly go into halfseat--you just need to release and be steady in your leg.
                              Granted, I do this plenty of the time

                              *EMMA*
                              emmaspace

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Laying on the horses neck over a jump is -- in a word -- incorrect. As someone stated, many of the professionals don't worry about they're equitation and can influence trends. But, this is about as valid as saying we should all hunch our shoulders because Hap Hansen does. Hap Hansen gets away with riding that way, because he's HAP HANSEN. And, I know he does not teach his students to ride that way.

                                The modern jumping position was developed to allow the HORSE as much freedom as possible -- and therefore getting a better jumping performance from your horse. You may see photos of pros jumping VERY large fences that have closed their hip angle to the point where it looks as though they are laying on the horses neck, but if you look closer, most of them have their butt out behind them and their leg under them and are therefore in balence with their horses. The sheer physical force of jumping big jumps can momentarily throw a rider into a "bad" postion, but that's the trouble with photos, they only capture the moment, not the entire jump.

                                Laying on the horse's neck is something any decent H/J trainer should crucify us for...and I should know, as I've been crucified for that offence many times over the years.

                                Our job over a fence is basically to stay out of the way, and laying on the horses neck is definitly -- in the way. I read a great article several months ago by a German Dressage trainer (who's name, of course, escapes me at the moment) who likened a rider to a backpack. Imagine wearing a backpack and trying to climb a mountain -- only the backpack has a life of it's own and keeps moving around on your back throwing you off balance. This is what we are to the horse. I loved that metaphor and thought -- wow, that REALLY applies to jumping as well. It was a wonderful reminder of why we need to ride quietly and with finesse.

                                And, there you have it, once again Dressage improves our jumping!

                                Seb
                                Aca-Believe it!!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It's what I call p3 (piss-poor position). I ride hunters and some riders tend to act like they are jumping a 5 foot fence when in reality its 2'6". As people learn and progress that p3 violation should go away, in theory!

                                  Although I've seen some trainers with the most hidious form over fences I've ever seen.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Velvet, you are causing the HPs to get their TS's and hairnets in a bundle!

                                    However, this is coming from a DQ who doesn't wear spurs and who (gasp) rides ahead of the vertical at times! Take my bowler and beat me silly!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Bowler?! I thought those were like so last century.

                                      Most premature departures are pilot error.
                                      \"Anger is the only thing that won\'t go away by losing it.\" - Jack Nicholson in Anger Management


                                      www.rozeroz.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Well, Velvet wears one so I suppose they ARE last century (even two centuries ago, since she's ancient).

                                        I wear my snappy Troxel Exeter with my Pikeur and Schumachers...

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