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LONG ISLAND- The outcome of this past PHA meeting

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  • #81
    Dustwomen, I agree with you in what you are trying to get across, Well all I can say is that L.I. has more divisions to able people to stay at a level that they know that they can get prizes at, because if you are paying to compete you should be able to get a ribbon. Soon there will be one winner. Just like "lead line" and the rest get light blue. I hate to sound judgemental but L.I. should try to make it where the riders move on. To benefit the riders and make the parents feel like they are getting something for there money besides ribbons. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]


    • #82
      Ok, not to get off the subject here but I just wanted to mention this, I dont remember when there was a Kings Diary show grounds, I only remember a "DAIRY QUEEN" and I got ice cream there! lol, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


      • #83
        Wow, Kings Dairy. Brings back many memories.


        • #84
          On all posts, above. I must say, Long Island, at least on this thread, seems a microcosm of the industry at large. A small group of vocalists, but over 1,000 lurkers! So I guess we're all facing the same dilemna? Ideas welcome! Lurkers -speak up here. It's a good discussion.

          Lots of issues here. I do think going back to a real maiden-novice-limit standard would go a long way to moving riders up. What a thrill it was, way back when, to move out of one status for another. H**L, I was out of Novice after my first show, and the challenges at the Limit level were just what I needed to move up to that terrifying 3'6" division -- there was no other option! That was then. . .and believe it or not, the Rule Book still has specs for all this stuff.

          Today, life is just to darn easy. That's not to say ribbons, at whatever level, aren't gratifying. This brings us back to the entire SPLIT or not-to SPLIT scenario. The more splits, the more opportunity for a ribbon. This is the case on the very local level (i.e. LI High Score) OR the Zone or National Level.

          FYI: hunter sections, with the exception of Green, A/O and Adult Amat. can NOT be split until there are 39 entries. Reference: AHSA Art. 2408.

          There's a solution out there. Consider this an open invitation to all, for input, because we really do need to analyze all of it, from all view points.


          • #85
            Using the size of the ring as an argument for splitting is really stretching it. As a junior, in the late '60's I did the M/N/L and the flat classes were usually held in the "Flat Ring", which was a ring that was too small for any jumping classes to be held in it.

            I still believe that it is the management's or judge's responsibility to require splitting flat classes if they get too large and appear, in the least bit, unsafe. As a show manager I always told my judges to use their discretion, especially at the canter. And I paid attention too.

            On the subject of staying too long in some divisions- M. O'C is again right. If you are talking about the C-rated Adults and Childrens hunter divisions, some, I'm no exception, view those as their final goal. This is due to $ and their horses' abilities. But I don't think that the Pre-groups should be considered someone's last attainable goal, especially if they are whippin' everyone else's butt in it.

            "Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening
            \"I can\'t drive....55!!!!\" Sammy Hagar


            • #86
              Wow, King's Dairy!! I remember the rain and mud one time was so bad, everyone was stuck except Mikey!! That blue truck of his must have gotten a push from some leprechauns!!! I used the snow fence to drive over to get my truck out!! Maybe I shouldn't be admitting that now- The Fallons are probably still looking for the guy who recked all their snow fencing!!!

              "Nothing ruins a neighborhood, like neighbors." L. Greening
              \"I can\'t drive....55!!!!\" Sammy Hagar


              • #87
                equitation, is that the courses and tests required at each level increased in degree of difficulty in a logical way.

                Right now, the Lo/Hi Children's eq are run over the exact same courses that the Pre-Children's or Children's Hunters do...Often, these divisions are perceived only as a warm-up for the hunters...The only variation in difficulty is the height of the fences, which, in my opionion, is more an indication of a horse's scope and ability than the rider's...

                Not only was it a thrill to move up the ladder, but the required course got more difficult as well. In the Limit, one needed to be prepared to jump an in-and-out, and the Mini's were a preparation for the 3'6" equitation, not an ultimate goal. All the specs are still there, but show managements need to be convinced to ressurect these divisions on a regular basis. Perhaps if we could keep track of the riders winnings, it wouldn't be a bad idea to present certificates at the awards dinner to those who have moved up on merit? A few pieces of paper really wouldn't set us back too much? And think of the scene five or six years from now, when the big-eq divisions would actually fill on a regular basis, allowing those with limited budgets to fulfil meaningful goals without having to travel too far from home?
                Inner Bay Equestrian


                • Original Poster

                  First off, Janet, the neighbor thing has me on the floor and OH SO TRUE! Was that a Libby quote? Tell her my hats off to her!
                  Now, number one. The size of the ring should not matter but from a trainers point of view seeing larger rings right across from you with less people flating in it can be frustrating. I think the Hamptons has a great idea with the main hunter ring. How about we open the ring up for flat classes?
                  Number 2. Unfortunatly some people have peaked at 2'6'' because of the athletic ability of the horse. With the prices of horses today,the $3,5000 special is a throw of the dice when you are dealing with people with limited funds! The pre groups are your 2'6'' group so what do we do about that?
                  Number 3. Let's decide here in our little message board world. Do we not want splits anymore? Do we want to go back to the ladder system? If majority says yes then, Low hunter Am/pro split-gone. Did you know in zones sm, med. and lg. ponies all run as one. so, that split, gone. No more eq. classes. Just, m/N/L. Adult A&B split-gone. I do not feel it should all start with the pre-childrens hunter. If we want to do this, then, lets do it to all! That's the old days people. Will it work today? If majority thinks it will work in this era I am all for giving it a try!
                  \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                  Stevie Nicks


                  • Original Poster

                    Boom from the left,Bang from the right!
                    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]
                    \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                    Stevie Nicks


                    • #90
                      Wow, I'd better get my a** to a show and see what kind of classes are out there before I go showing. Why can't people leave things alone as long as they're going well? (or haven't they) It suc*s when you've been out so long.


                      • #91
                        Janet, I think I remember when you used the snow fence that time (unless it was before my showing time) at Kings Dairy. It was ALWAYS muddy there. Does anyone remember when Harry deLeyer was beating the crap out of someone in their truck while they were driving and he was on the drivers side at Hugh's show? I really miss him.


                        • #92
                          Hey guys, are we enjoying the rain?

                          I am not sure an across the board refusal to split any class is going to work either. At least for those "rated" divisions that are covered under the AHSA rule book. As far as the "unrated" classes that the LIHSAA has instituted the division between professional and amateur is kind of obvious, and working very well I might add, but there could be a minimum number of entries required to split.

                          If we are looking to split, lets say the pre-childrens hunter, or the pre equitation what should the breakdown be? By Horse and Pony, or by age of the child, or just a split based on the total number entered? Should there be another award given, or do all the points add up toward the same end of year prize? I personally don't want to split at 12 just so everyone gets a prize, I think 17 or 18 is a good number.

                          If we split what happens to the increment system, if we never get over 8 riders in the ring? Boy that will make the Hampton Classis classes look trememdous!!



                          • #93
                            An aged based split might actually be a very good idea...that is how the eq divisions are now split at the Hampton Classic, anyway.
                            Inner Bay Equestrian


                            • #94
                              I hope Betty comes to the next meeting. She has a lot of facts and figures concerning all the class entrants. Maybe she can shed some light on the age split idea. If I see her at Sunday's show I will make sure to invite her.


                              • Original Poster

                                I didn't think no splits would be popular! If we are going to split one, then the splits should continue. Pre-childrens should be split horses and ponies not age. Look at it this way- ponies jump a different height. If you go by the book striding should be re-adjusted then so it makes sense to make a split by that. No one wants to go against a few horses but it IS going to happen at times. The only way to stop it is no splits across the board and trust me the masses will freak. That is what I meant by looking at the whole picture. We have destined ourselves to split divisions the first time we did it.
                                \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                                Stevie Nicks


                                • #96
                                  Hey Judge, I was there when that incident happened when Harry deLeyer jumped in the back of the truck and was punching at the guy, well I guess I would do the same thing if someone back into my horse with a truck and proceeded to go. See hit and run happens in the show world too, but Harry caught up with the person. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]


                                  • #97
                                    Since I don't have the data can anyone tell me if the divisions in question, pre-childrens equitation and hunters, were actually split last year, or did this just happen in the 2001 season? If they were split in 2000 do we know if Micheal counted those points? I have heard that this year he chose to throw out the split points.

                                    Does anyone have the breakdown of how many horses vs ponies are in these divisions? How about the age groups of the riders competing?

                                    If we are destined to split I kind of like the age idea for the equitation. Younger riders are usually the less experienced and it is hard for an 8 year old to complete against a 15 or 17 year old.

                                    I still think that we should not split unless the numbers show that six would complete in the division on a regular basis. Ribbons and their points should be earned and not given away. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Everyone does understand I am just trying to make 'whats good for one is good for the other'here! Splits were originally made for even playing fields. In a perfect world all could come home with a ribbon. Please try to understand I am doing an aerial view from the show. Am. should not have to ride against pro, olders should not have to go against youngers and ponies should not have to go against horses. This will make divisions small at times but the altrnate route is no splits and it seems that does not sound good either so we must take the lesser of two evil routes.

                                      As far as the splits for the eq. divisions what is the problem here? None are end of year award winning divisions so if managment wants more to come home with ribbons that day and time permits them let them split away.

                                      Pre-childrens hunter. I have had a horse campaign in for the last two years. Last year the ponies were in the majority, this year it seems like horses. So, like any division,the tide swings from year to year but I can state it is a strong division and warrents a split.

                                      As far as numbers when to split, that should be the real issue here. I think the AHSA has set us in for the #3. If LIHSAA wants to make a # then that is fine but remember, your looking at another can of worms because what do we do with the Am. pro. low hunter split. All have stated how popular that division is and what will happen down the line at the small shows when they go together? Sometimes we have scathed through on a split there. I have an Am. so of course I am for keeping the number 3 there. So, what would be the magic number the masses will want?

                                      [This message was edited by Gold Dust on May. 24, 2001 at 09:31 AM.]
                                      \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                                      Stevie Nicks


                                      • #99
                                        Well I have to say that I understand everyone persective on this issue, but lets try and be grownup's here, if there are going to be splits given dont you think it should be just between the childrens divisions? I mean come on that low hunter division is a joke. Pro/Am. Why cant it all be considered one. Why does everything have to be split. Answer me that, I understand that Amatuers dont want to show against Pro's, but that is just to bad, Myself and others had too show with them all, We just went out there and tried our best, And what ever we ended up with we were either happy or a little disappointed in what we recieved. But we still did it. When you move up to the next level after the Low hunters as a amatuer or Junior then you will be showing againt your own kind. But until then buck up and ride it out, Just like we had too, This make up splits for these divisions is just ridiculous. What will be next splits by color of horse?


                                        • Original Poster

                                          I think I was to blame on that one. The reason that came in to play was because I thought the pre-adults should be considered beginners and I believed it should be kept that way. The low hunter split came in to play so the highter level Am. did not have to ride with the pros and as it has been stated it IS a strong division and I think should stay that way.

                                          If we raise the split # the low hunter I believe will cause the same point counting problem as the past Rice Farms pre-children hunter class. Please, how about some possible solutions to the problem. It is plain as day we can bi** all day but where is the solution? Suggestions!
                                          \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                                          Stevie Nicks