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LONG ISLAND- The outcome of this past PHA meeting

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  • #61
    Agree with Mary the judge should split when its unsafe particularly withh size of that ring last weekend!Problem judge is tired wants to get it over .Management should I think suggest splitting for safety to judge .
    About how this truly stupid self serving rule came about ask the g#@ DA^%*#$ board because it justs eemd to appear out of nowhere like everything else this year!
    Brilyntrip

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    • #62
      Was I not harshly criticised ( by trainers who should have been confident that thier riders could handle the challenge) for designing main ring courses that, among other things, included an OPTION to elect to jump a liverpool in the USET and WIHS equitation classes at an A2 show??? Silly me!

      I would welcome a return to the system where moving up was mandatory: ie Maiden, Novice, Limit, Intermediate, and Open equitation. (Someone please tell me the advantage of having the kids move up from Short Stirrup to "Low/High Children's Eq," and then straight to Mini's, and on to Open. )

      Same goes for the hunters, as far as moving up. But it has to make sense.

      I think it's wrong to pick and choose where you take a hard line on this, and to single out the Pre-children's to get tough when the regular children's often have only a handful competing against each other for zone points (when was the last time the ponies weren't split from the horses in that division, or for that matter, how often are the ponies split from each other when the minimum of three are present?) It is only logical that pre-children's should follow the format of the actual children's.


      I don't like the zillions of divisions overmuch, but there are pros and cons to the present situation. Pro: we now have a market niche for a wider range of horses. The type of 3' "evergreen" horses that weren't worth a plugged nickle in 1979 can now fetch a tidy sum as children's/adult hunters. Con: people who wouldn't have cut the mustard back then as trainers now make a good living prepping these creatures and their riders for the show ring. Of course if you are one of these folks, the ability to make ends meet and then some is a definite "pro."

      LI isn't alone in seeing the weakening of the "big" divisions...when they introduced/modified the increment system and ended up killing off the "B" shows (there was no motivation to show at them anymore), they made overnight stays, two days of training/braiding/shipping, etc a condition of competition that had to be endured if one wanted to show in those divisions and "go bigtime"--no more going to St. Joseph's, Sagaponack, Glen Head at King's Dairy Farm (is it even still there?) to get your first year and junior hunter points--you had to go to the big A's, and that meant you had to spend at least twice as much money as before. THAT is the reason the 3'6" divisions were dealt a death blow, not because people didn't want to move up--when people are coming into the sport now, they start local, ie unrecognized divisions, and there isn't anything on offer for them anymore unless they are wealthy enough to be able to make the leap to the 5-day A circuit shows. They don't stay around to fill the "big" divisions at the smaller shows, because there is no motivation for them to do so.

      Since the "old ladder" of progress is gone, I don't think it makes sense to build a new one with the rungs haphazardly placed. It should all make sense, so the kids can progress up it in a logical way, or it should be overhauled. Just my opionion.

      And a side note: RAIN!!!! I see RAIN outside my window, at long last!!!

      [This message was edited by M. O'Connor on May. 22, 2001 at 08:49 AM.]

      [This message was edited by M. O'Connor on May. 22, 2001 at 08:51 AM.]
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      • Original Poster

        #63
        Befor I get to the split discussion I would like to point out for all who are just lurking and expecially comittee members in case you did not already know Janet and I are friends and once in a while actually do not agree. Is this not what LIHSAA meetings should actually be doing. Discussing matters without everyones hair getting all raised up. People should disagree so when a rule is passed it has at least been thrown around the table a bit!
        O.K.,the split thing. Janet you are so correct and hit the nail on the head! Nobody likes to loose. Then-why split low hunters Am. and pros,why split adult hunters A,B,and C why split ch. hunters sm.,med.,lg.,and horses? In my opinion we added pre-childrens as an end of year award division. Maybe this would weed out the non award divisions, force people to do the other ones and then more people would go to the dinner dance! This making any sense?
        \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
        Stevie Nicks

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        • #64
          Huh?? I don't get it. (Not unusual...probably just me...)

          I mean the part about the splits...the disagreement part I understand. If we all agreed, we would be in a really boring place.
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          • #65
            Back in my youth I worked for Hugh Cassidy's shows and remember clearly his stand to only split a class if there were 50 in it. As a rider it never occured to me that there were too many entrants in my classes. I just rode. Many an Old Field show, or ST Joseph's did I hack in a section and be released, but what a thrill it was when I was picked to stay in and finish the flat with "the best" of 25. Yes getting a ribbon was even better but I was always proud to make the cut, and if I didn't my trainer usually had a reason why if I didn't already know. As a trainer today I am disappointed how "easy" the shows have become. Kids stay in divisions when they are clearly ready to move up. Worse yet I hear trainers who blame the lack of ribbons on everything but rider/horse error. It's the either the judge, the poor footing, the course, the time schedule, I could go on and on. There is a serious lack of respect on the trainers part and that is what our young riders are learning. As far as spliting the divisions I don't think a class with four to six is the answer. We shouldn't create splits to ensure that riders get ribbons. As for the safety issue, both the judge and show management have the power to divide the class into sections, bringing the "cream" back to finish. Just like they have the power to chose to hold cards on six classes at one time

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            • #66
              It would be nice if we could all agree to raise the standards once more, and maybe we'd produce another Stephen Weiss or Jenno Topping...

              It would be nice to come up with a system to encourage progress, not just point counting...let's not forget that the concept of high-score awards are a double edged sword...After all, the whole notion of the year -end awards, while providing people with an incentive to turn up at the shows, by definition means a rider/horse remains in the same division for a long stretch of time without moving up--practicing the same thing over and over for twelve months with no variation doesn't encourage progression, until after the awards dinner is over...that is a long time to keep doing the same thing. There is no easy answer to this dilemma.

              On the other hand, the disappearance of the upper divisions at the "local" shows means that there isn't much available to move up to...but, this doesn't seem to be a situation that is unique to our area. No one seems to be able to come up with a formula that will be acceptable to the majority, yet encourage progress in a logical way. Any ideas?
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              • #67
                Been reading all the posts on the discussion about the split of the classes when there are 18-20 in a class. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this subject...each has a valid reason on whether to split or run the class as a whole. Not sure which way to go on this, but can understand both sides. I definetly do believe that safety should come first and it should be made mandatory that a class, whichever it may be,should be split to hack. Not only is it unsafe but I don't think the judge can fairly judge a class with 20 horses and ponies cantering around. There have been many times that the riders dont even canter around the ring once. How can a judge honestly look at the whole field in such a short time???? This issue should be looked at and become mandatory!!
                I agree with M O'Connor as far as returning to our old standards of Maiden- Open. What happened to that???? At least when a rider gets a blue ribbon he has to move out of the Maiden Division and into Novice.....3 blues and onward and upward to Limit....6 blues your out, move to Open. Today these riders stay in this Pre-Childrens until they grow old. Yes the specs say open to Novice riders but we all know there are so many of them that do not belong in that division. Just read your prize lists, how confusing are they?? Some prize lists will show the specs for Pre-Adult - Open to riders who are eligible for Limit, another prize list will say eligible for Novice.....which is it??? Why did we invent these divisions anyway, at least when you were a Maiden rider you knew where you belonged.
                [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

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                • Original Poster

                  #68
                  Mary, I think the part you did not understand was, if you look at a prize list many classes are divisions offered for kids like pre-eq that are 4 flat classes and 1 jump class that is not awarded at the dinner dance and maybe we could weed those out and really fill up pre-childrens and sh. st. divisions so when we split it is a warrented split. Enough lower level divisions are offered already. Wendy and Janet are so correct in not lets make things any easier.

                  Wendy, I remember those maiden days in a cast of thousands and your post was correct. But, look at it from this point. When you are a trainer or child riding in the pre-childrens and you are in a cast of many and you look over at the next ring and see the zone 2 childrens hunter split don't you just want to say hey, what's up with that? Personally I would love to see things the way they were years ago but that will never happen. Different day, different times. Also do not forget what grand-prix courses looked like way back when and how high they jumped. Do we want to bring that back? Let's look at proper changes here. Some pre-divisions are great but not pre- pre- pre- ones!!!

                  Kings Dairy Farm- Oh my god Mary I feel like I do not want to have a clue on what you are talking about but god help me I felt old with that one!!!! lol
                  \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                  Stevie Nicks

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                  • #69
                    I remember showing at Kings Dairy, that big field on Jericho Tpk. That was many hoof prints ago.
                    Think they built houses there now. Nothing lasts forever [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

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                    • #70
                      M/N/L/ system was when someone told me years ago that because the Hampton Classic (at the end of the season) offered M/N/L that it was important to protect the kids' eligibility for those divisions, or they wouldn't have anything to show in come Classic time...since the Classic now has age based "open" equitation classes across the board now, this no longer makes any sense to me. Comments?

                      Deb, I'm following you now about the splits, and you and I are on the same wavelength.
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                      • #71
                        M/N/L

                        I'm a firm believer in the Ladder System and offered it at the Country Fair shows. Being able to move up was a reward of sorts, but now it is not about moving up. It is about how long one can stay in a division. We're all guilty of that, the system encourages it. The Ladder System probably won't work now, we have too many cheaters and the focus is for year end awards, not moving up mileage.

                        Splitting

                        The AHSA has created The 3-Horse Split in their hunter divisions. I do not agree with The 3-Horse Split as it does not encourage competitiveness, but if it is offered and is part of the rules of the game, I'm there, you bet!! The LIHSA does not have to follow suit with its own unrated divisions if it opts not to.

                        I would like to see Betty Cantor's numbers on her Pre-Chldrens Hunters for the year 2000. How many ponies vs. horses, and how often?? I've been told that there were often not many ponies and the split would have been severely unbalanced. I can not see creating yet another LIHSA division for 4-5 ponies.

                        Also in talking with Betty, she mentioned that most kids in that group were not interested in LIHS Awards, so now tell me why we need to have it split in the LIHSA?

                        M. O'C is right, there needs to be a methodical progression of levels. Winners must move on and leave others to do some winning. The problem is that with kids staying in a division for a year or more, you start to get consistant winners who end up "owning" the division. Those who are not winning so much want the split to get away from the "owners". If we got back to the Ladder System, in both the hunters and eq, maybe people would feel more comfortable riding in a group of 12! They just have to get past the award focus thing.

                        [This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 22, 2001 at 11:48 AM.]
                        \"I can\'t drive....55!!!!\" Sammy Hagar

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                        • #72
                          When the numbers get big in the hunters the Increment System jumps in.
                          \"I can\'t drive....55!!!!\" Sammy Hagar

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                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Correct, they are moving up divisions but we are talking about hunter divisions and what can the LIHSAA do about people owning those divisions? If we would like to bring back the moving up ladder in eq. lets do it. How does living in a hunter division get solved?......... Correct-no solution,so why not make the playing field fair?

                            Boom, boom-is that gunfire I just heard? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

                            O.k. thank god I ducked. now, to continue on, the only way to keep people out of living in those divisions is to actually keep track of all eq. ribbons won. We could eliminate all of these high, low, and pre eq. classes then people would know where they stood. Is that a route we would like to take?

                            What was that noise? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]
                            \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                            Stevie Nicks

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                            • #74
                              That definitely has my vote!!!

                              The hunter problem has always been tricky...there is a need for people to support the shows and the high score award programs, yet there is also a need to provide incentive for advancement.

                              Some creativity is called for....some new ideas. Who's got some?
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                              • Original Poster

                                #75
                                Support means work and discussions Mary, and I am all up for it. Non active LIHSAA board members, are you getting the big picture yet?

                                In the modern day of computers can we not keep track of these things some easy way? Could not a clic of a button let you know it is time to get out of that division? It's not like it was way back when! Shows have tripled in size and rings have shrunk. I really have no idea how to solve this problem but there must be a way!

                                [This message was edited by Gold Dust on May. 22, 2001 at 04:05 PM.]
                                \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                                Stevie Nicks

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                                • #76
                                  Parents are so proud of their offspring when they graduate to the next grade in school, to the next color belt in Karate, or when they get to play first string in school sports, but the Moving On Thing in the horse world is poo-poo-ed. Why is that? Karin- Deb- you guys are parents- what's that all about?? Why isn't Short Stirrup viewed as the Kindergarten of the shows, Children's Hunter as Junior High, and Juniors and Big Eq as High School? Would you guys be happy if you child was held back for 2-3 years in the same grade at school??

                                  If necessary, repeating a grade is a good thing, but if a child is ready to go on, why doesn't he/she? Why isn't the trainer embarrassed that their student is repeating Short Stirrup for the 3rd or 4th time??

                                  [This message was edited by PONYPULR on May. 22, 2001 at 05:19 PM.]
                                  \"I can\'t drive....55!!!!\" Sammy Hagar

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                                  • #77
                                    It's funny but way back when we did have those divisions we didn't have secretaries or computers to keep track of our ribbons. I guess it was more or less the honor system, when you got your blue ribbons you moved on to the next division. Trainers would be embarassed to let their students continue to ride in a division they were no longer eligible for. Parents were happy to see the kids move up, it was an accomplishment. I think the trainers are responsible for allowing their students to compete in divisions they are no longer eligible for. After all, aren't we signing the entry blanks???????? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

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                                    • Original Poster

                                      #78
                                      Janet, you are correct that there are some people that keep there kids in divisions forever. Moving up is a great thing and should be encouraged and it is up to the trainer to say hey, time to step up! From a parent and trainers point of view I do not encourage milking a division. Now, is L.I. pre-divisions supposed to set the standards when right here in our own back yard we have ch. hunters and Ad. am. cleaning up L.I. and zone awards year after year. Get that computer out and look at pre-childrens hunter and zone 2 hunter divisions and lets see who has a major milk mustache here! Pre-childrens should be split until we really step back and look at the whole mirror here.
                                      One more thing guys. Way back when splits were not done until huge amounts of horses, but go back in your memory banks and were the rings the size they are today? Where the kids did pre-childrens hunter this weekend and when we did maiden in those huge fields is no comparison!
                                      \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                                      Stevie Nicks

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                                      • #79
                                        for the Maiden/Novice/Limit, though sometimes the Limit took place on the outside course or the Main Ring...I remember the ring behind Mid-Island Arena, the sand ring at Topping's, over on the side at St. Joseph's...

                                        I also remember that we were all really tickled when we did manage to break the maiden, win the two more blues that would get us out of Novice, and that some of the kids just starting out in the Medal/Maclay were still eligible for Limit...

                                        I think there are several factors that discourage people from moving on...The major one, I've already mentioned, is that it is no longer realistic to set your sights on accomplishing anything in the 3'6" divisions without making that move up to the multi-day A2 $chedule or to the 5-day A3's. For those with real serious deep pockets, that isn't a problem, but those people are not too often seen in the old stomping grounds after that move is made, because there is no incentive for them to attend. For those without the finances to play that multi-day game on a regular basis, they are out of luck. So, why not just go for Zone finals year in and year out? The way the present system is set up, it encourages this.
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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #80
                                          Lets face it, money is one big factor why people cann't move up. In todays market the difference between a 2'6'',3', and 3'6" horse is insane. Prices have gone through the roof. Some of these kids just can not move up so you will see a horse in that division year after year.It's the ones that have already been there and done that, that choose to stay in the lower divisions that need the kick to get out! Remember I am not talking about riders coming out with a new horse or pony it is the same combo year after year. Unfortunatly I believe it is more in zones then these little pre-divisions we are talking about now! Also take into consideration some horses can not step up in height because they are not athletic enough. What do we do with this problem?
                                          \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
                                          Stevie Nicks

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