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This week's COTH amateur issue: Interesting article on different types of amateurs. Comments?

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  • #21
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As a "low level pro" who teaches beginners, I'd probably just show in the ammies - and still get my butt kicked . I'm definitley still an amateur rider, but I happen to be pretty good at teaching an 8 year old to post.
    I think the ability to teach beginner riders is less about your own personal ability to ride and more about communication skills. I'm not sure where that line changes though.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That one is easy. The line changes WHEN YOU GET PAID.

    If you take money for teaching - including teaching 8 year olds how to post - you are a professional, and should no longer show in the amateurs.

    There are a lot of gray areas in the amateur specs, but that isn't one of them.

    **********
    To appreciate heaven well
    'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
    Will Carleton (1845-1912)
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina

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    • #22
      Lucassb-
      Luckily, I don't show. While I have no qualms getting paid to teach someone to ride, trust me, no one would ever pay me to ride their horse! Ever! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
      If I ever did decide to show, would I be able to be an amateur again?
      The world needs more beginner riding lesson teachers that are good - the real "pros" are too expensive and too busy for them, and a lot of what people are left to choose from is scary. It's too bad that in order to teach basic riding lessons you can't keep your amateur status. People could easily support their showing by teaching a few walk trotters every week. I'm sure that there are many people in my situation - knowledgable enough to teach basic riding and horsemanship skills, but not talented enough to train a horse. I guess it would be really hard to separate those people out...

      The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
      The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

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      • #23
        idea is great, but can you just imagine the big equitation trainers out there schooling their kids' horses? Especially the "green" eq horses?
        How could it ever be fair for the real amateur?

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        • #24
          Yes, if you ever want to show again, you can regain your amateur status. You have to quit teaching, of course - and you have to sit out for a while, but it can be done.

          While I understand the argument that sharing the basics of instruction with a beginner is not the same as coaching a medals finalist, I have to say I endorse the amateur rule as it is written.

          **********
          To appreciate heaven well
          'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
          Will Carleton (1845-1912)
          **********
          We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
          -PaulaEdwina

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          • #25
            magnolia

            I've had several people at my barn ask me if I taught lessons or would help them with their jumping. I recently applied for 2 different financial aid packages as well... BOTH limited to adult amateurs. See, I could very well be in your place. No, eventing doesn't focus on ammy v. pro the way H/J does, but it's still there. However, the rules, as someone already stated, ARE clear... if you accept money for riding or teaching, you aren't an ammy anymore. I've told people no... I help with their jumping for free... and I ride for the cost of the entry only. Sorry, but sacrifices must be made when the rules are THAT clear.

            If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!
            ************
            "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

            "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

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            • #26
              I probably wouldn't care if I had to ride in the regular divisions or compete in the horse section at a horse trial. It just isn't that big of a deal to me!
              What is a big deal to me is that it seems like there is a lack of quality instruction available for beginners - one woman I teach for has a wait list a mile long! I wonder if the amateur rules effect this or if people just aren't interested in doing it (teaching beginners)? Also, what if for example, an amateur doing the "A" circuit teaches beginners for her trainer and is paid back by free lessons from the trainer. Is that acceptable?

              It is interesting. It is kind of flattering to be thought of as a professional horsewaoman though....

              The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
              The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

              Comment


              • #27
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
                Also, what if for example, an amateur doing the "A" circuit teaches beginners for her trainer and is paid back by free lessons from the trainer. Is that acceptable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Nope, that is still renumeration. Not much different from you getting paid to do the lessons and turning right around and handing it over to your trainer for lessons.

                Now you can groom or haul horses for your trainer, just not ride horses or train students.

                I agree with you about the lack of quality beginner instructers though. And I also agree that someone who is the world's greatest up-downer instructor could very easily be not half the rider that a lot of ammies are, but you are right in that it would be a terribly easy rule to abuse.
                Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

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                • #28
                  What is the Legacy Cup?
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                  • #29
                    Forgive me for griping without offering a solution... I'll work on it. I have to say, I think the current amateur rule sucks. In fact, I don't think they could make a WORSE rule if they tried. We're all aware of the problems, and I won't rehash them. One of the biggest problems, in my mind, is that people seems content to say,..."Well, we'll never please everyone, so we'll just leave it as it is." (This is not aimed at anyone on this board.) First, that statement is 100% true. We will never please everyone. However, I think we could do a whole heck of a lot better. Maybe I'll come up with a new proposal, and see what you guys think. I think the PURPOSE of the amateur rule is to provide a level field for competition. Obviously, no field will be completely level. Unfortunately, the current rule divides "riding ability" by factors that are not necessarily related to it... i.e., where you derive your income. I think we can do better. I for one, will try to do better. I'll let you know when my new amateur status definition is ready for comments. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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                    • #30
                      I stopped showing A and B shows is that I just can't be competitive against Miss Moneybags who has a pro rider her horse in the division before the A/A, then hops on him at the gate, hangs on and gets a good ribbon. I do it myself, maybe I don't do it well enough to win at the A's, but it is my effort. So now I do a much less expensive local circuit, have great fun, and actually win ribbons! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe I'll venture back out to some of the local rated shows this summer, depends on whether or not I have time to ride more than twice a week.

                      It just isn't worth it to spend a ton of money to go to the "big" shows and come home and say, well, my horse was good and I had fun, but I didn't get anything.
                      Use the Force.

                      [This message was edited by Flash44 on Nov. 26, 2001 at 05:22 PM.]
                      Man plans. God laughs.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I wasn't trying to be rude or dismissive - I do work full time, keep my horses at home, groom for myself, haul, etc, etc - I think that would put me into some of the categories people have mentioned. However, I choose to show at A shows against ammies who don't face those constraints. Sure, it would be nice to be in a division restricted to those who are on a limited budget/time schedule/etc to "level the playing field", but it would make that division less competitive overall. At most of the smaller A show, the A/Os are lucky to have more than 4-6 entries at all, you couldn't split that any further if you wanted to! You have to look at the results in terms of your own personal goals, not just if you won. You have to look at the fact that maybe some of the people in front of you do this full time and are independently wealthy, and maybe on the good days some of the ones behind you are too. Sure, it gets frustrating at times, but I get over it - I have no desire to go down a level. I agree the rules need to be changed in some ways, but right now how much you have or how well you ride does not come into play.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          and congratulations on the great ribbons you won at indoors! My neighbor LC filled me in!

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                          • #33
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JBO:
                            I wasn't trying to be rude or dismissive - I do work full time, keep my horses at home, groom for myself, haul, etc, etc - I think that would put me into some of the categories people have mentioned. However, I choose to show at A shows against ammies who don't face those constraints. Sure, it would be nice to be in a division restricted to those who are on a limited budget/time schedule/etc to "level the playing field", but it would make that division less competitive overall. At most of the smaller A show, the A/Os are lucky to have more than 4-6 entries at all, you couldn't split that any further if you wanted to! You have to look at the results in terms of your own personal goals, not just if you won. You have to look at the fact that maybe some of the people in front of you do this full time and are independently wealthy, and maybe on the good days some of the ones behind you are too. Sure, it gets frustrating at times, but I get over it - I have no desire to go down a level. I agree the rules need to be changed in some ways, but right now how much you have or how well you ride does not come into play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Wonder why the A/Os only have 4 - 6 entries at small shows? The A/As never have less than 10. What if the A/As were forced to ride their horses themselves, and actually learned how to correct problems and work through difficult situations, instead of having the trainer fix the problems. Maybe they would be doing the A/Os too.

                            Use the Force.
                            Man plans. God laughs.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              While I agree the current rules are not perfect, they are the rules and I really don't think there is a fair way to change them.

                              You cannot make a rule for one small group that is unhappy because they feel they should have more opportunites.

                              In the past all levels, pros, junior and ammies showed against each other.

                              Classes developed to what we have today based on need and a demand for them.

                              Sorry but I do not see a "need" for a dramatic change of the current rules. If the need was there, local circuits would already have the classes. I have not seem many that do and they are always the breeding grounds for the new divisions. Look at all the 2'6" that has appeared. Indio didn't just get the idea to have them for the novice level. It was a proven division that had a market.

                              I don't believe there really is a market for many of the changes that have been suggested.

                              Additionally, a post from another thread keeps popping into my mind. We are not figure skating, etc and DO NOT fit their amateur rules. There is no way that we could so stop trying. The same is true for almost every other sport.

                              With the exception of golf and a few others, we would all be pros within a few years of getting out of school. That is one of the reasons that I feel the NCAA recognizing Equestrian will never really happen. We don't fit their rules and the odds of changing them to fit would mean revamping the entire horse show industry. No more prize money, etc. But you would then be allowed to teach at a small scale to beginners. That is allowed by the NCAA.

                              Slightly off topic, but still something to think about.

                              Zipping flame suit.

                              Oh, and I am an amatuer, horseless as well these days as I don't have the time or money to do it the way I want to do it.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Is this Anne? I haven't seen you in ages! I think LC mentioned you were neighbors........ how are you doing?
                                [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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                                • #36
                                  Miss Hattie will be back in shape just in time for HITS. Which means - I will be visiting your husband for some "back to showing" shopping! Just think of it as my contribution to your A/O showing! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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                                  • #37
                                    to support my ridiculously expensive habit anytime - someone needs to, and I haven't found a taker yet!! We look forward to seeing you. Glad to hear Hattie is back in action! I usually have to get new breeches after a hiatus - those darn gnomes, sneaking into the closet and making them smaller! (that is the only reasonable explanation!!!!)

                                    I guess the one good thing you can say about the A/O divisions being small is that it helps pay back those entry fees!!!!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Flash, those are huge generalizations you are making. That's sort of like me saying everyone that shows at an A show can usually find 8, whereas 6 seems a miracle at an unrated show... It would sound an awful lot like I have a bug up my a$$ about schooling shows, wouldn't it? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                                      I know of a lot of amateurs who cannot afford a trainer to tune on their horse year 'round and do not have fancy, made horses and manage to get themselves to big shows and do well - a few of them are posting here. I have also seen plenty of people at schooling shows getting their horse tuned on by their trainer. I have seen people at a show that was a schooling show for an unrated circuit treating it with more importance than some people treat Devon! It's all in a person's perspective, I think.

                                      I think JBO said it perfectly - it's not who or how many you beat, it's how YOU rode the course. Rules and ribbons won't change how you feel about that.

                                      And just for giggles, the show I moved my horse up to the A/O's? The A/O's were split, the A/A's were combined! (Made me wonder why I chose that show to move up - if it was ribbons, there were easy ones to be had in the A/A's [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] )
                                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

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                                      • #39
                                        WC Princess, I totally agree with what you wrote in your post.

                                        'Nuff said....

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Thanks,

                                          Having spent my entire life in the "show" business I have seen all sides and none are that great [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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