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Chain lined nose bands?

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  • Chain lined nose bands?

    A couple of questions about these, if I might. I have a horse that can be a bit of a dingus on the landing side of a fence and will get heavy and squirrly when the mood strikes him. This only happens at home (which makes little to no sense, but I'm glad for it!), so it's less of an issue, but still not something we'd like to have happen. We have him in a great bit that he loves and it does it's job 99% of the time, but I am short and have a lot of physical limitations (I have a degenerative spine disorder and systemic rheumatoid arthritis, so I have my off days), so sometimes he can get the better of me. One of my trainers recommended trying a chain lined nose band, but I wanted to get a few opinions on these before giving it a go. Here's what I'd like to know:

    1) Can they cause any serious physical/long-term damage when *properly* used (not too tight, not hauling on the horse's face every 2 seconds, etc.)?
    2) Are they constantly causing pain/significant discomfort or only when a specific amount of pressure is applied?
    3) What is the difference between the wider chain and the narrower chain? I am assuming that the wider chain is less severe as it covers more surface area, but I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion.
    4) Are they legal to show in for the hunters/equitation? I have no expectation to use it, but if it ever came up, I'd want to be 100% sure to follow the rules
    5) Any personal experiences with them? Good or bad?
    6) Where can a raised, fancy stitch one be purchased (to match an Antares bridle or similar)?

    Thanks so much!
    Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.

  • #2
    i personally have not used a chain noseband but i can give some sort of answer for a few questions, just from knowledge and logic.

    a narrower chain should be more severe. a larger chain less severe. however, i am not sure if it's kind of like how bits are--generally, the thicker the bit, the duller it is, and the narrower, the more severe, but when you put a thick bit in a small mouth, it can be much harsher than a narrow bit would be, just because it doesnt fit properly. i am not entirely sure if the same rule would apply to nosebands, even though i'm not really sure why it would because it's not necessarily enclosed in a mouth or anything. but just a thought. i'm quite sure you can disregard anything else, and be sure that a narrow chain will be harsher, but i'm sure someone else can confirm.

    i have seen them used at rated shows, but that doesnt necessarily mean they are legal. i'm honestly not sure. it would be hard for the judge to see, but i'm sure someone on here can tell you if it is legal or not. once again, ive never used one, so i wouldn't know much on it's rules.if it is legal, i don't think it'd be considered 'unconventional tack' but you never know. i mean, it'd be hard for the judge to see the chain in general.

    DO be very careful with your horse's skin, though. Does it have a tendancy to get dry, rub very easily, is he thin-skinned? I would be VERY cautious if you really have to use one as far as skin goes. I don't recommend using one right after he's had a clipping (in the face, at least). Don't use one if he gets rubs very easily (if you're unsure: does he ever get rubs in the shoulders of his blankets? from the girth? from boots or the straps of boots? spur rubs? any chafing that causes him to lose significant hair should be a red flag and a warning to avoid the chain) Do not use if he has very dry skin (chains would make him more prone to cracking and bleeding under the chain)


    i honestly don't know much about the under-saddle use of chains because i've never used one, so as far as the U/S affect of actually having one on their nose, i could not tell you much. i have seen them used properly. this was on a ridiculously huge horse in the barn, and i cant imagine anyone riding him without one. he's just so darn big. he never had any type of rubbing (then again, this was a big meaty draft x who was always hairy) but i dont think he was even ridden all that often.

    most importantly, though, like you said--he doesnt have this issue at shows. don't get reliant on the chain if you decide to use it. it is an aid, and like spurs or a crop, you should only use it when you know you will need it. if you only need it for jumping, then only put the noseband on when you are jumping (okay, this could be a pain in the butt, but it's worth it if you want to be the most effective)
    (|--Sarah--|)

    Blitz <3 & Leap of Faith <3

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks, Superpony!

      Lucky for me, this is my super thick-skinned, nothing bothers him guy. If this were my other chestnut, I would have NEVER considered this an option as he gets rubs from his super padded, perfectly fitted, heavily conditioned/broken in bridle.

      It would definitely be only for O/F and unless he decides otherwise, it would only be used at home. I have a couple of bridles for each of my horses and he already has a jumping bridle set up, so I'd just switch out the noseband.
      Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.

      Comment


      • #4
        I've seen some made by Dy'on - you could check that out.
        **********************************
        I'd rather be riding!

        Comment


        • #5
          Are you using a standing martingale? I can't see how a chain nose band would do anything if you aren't using a standing?

          I don't know if they are legal in hunters or not. They were not back in the mid eighties... but people still used them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well. Just waiting for chain bits, two dressage whips, a shadow roll and "he was crooked in the womb" - that should complete it. Oh WAIT, custom saddle, metal poles and impossible-to-find coat. Soring, injected tails, chips in boots. Does that cover 'em all?

            Comment


            • #7
              While not "illegal" a judge can consider them unconventional, and not pin you if they find out you are using one.

              They are pretty much usless without a standing martingale. They (noseband) should not be tight. Make sure your martingale is adjusted properly as well.

              Hauling on the horse's face isn't good, but the noseband will only come into play if the horse raises his head and "hit" the end of the martingale.

              Generally no physical damage, although some horses will start to go around with more flexion to avoid hitting the end of the martingale, when they know they have a chain noseband on. You can sometimes get that effect, when the martingale is removed for a flat class, but it doesn't take them long to figure out that there is no martingale, hence no noseband pressure if their head is raised.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                He is in a standing martingale, should've mentioned that in the original post

                Coreene, I'm very confused by your post...I'm sure I've made some sort of COTH faux pas (train wreck topic? FAQ? I know not...I am not a terribly frequent poster) and for that I am sorry. This was something that was suggested to me and COTH seemed like the best place for me to get information. I am not trying to stir the pot or cause any issues what-so-ever. I'm sorry if I made a major blunder.
                Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think most people would be surprised to find many of these nosebands on a lot of bridles in the show tack rooms....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Punkie View Post
                    He is in a standing martingale, should've mentioned that in the original post

                    Coreene, I'm very confused by your post...I'm sure I've made some sort of COTH faux pas (train wreck topic? FAQ? I know not...I am not a terribly frequent poster) and for that I am sorry. This was something that was suggested to me and COTH seemed like the best place for me to get information. I am not trying to stir the pot or cause any issues what-so-ever. I'm sorry if I made a major blunder.
                    You haven't made a faux pas. It's an issue that some people feel very strongly about. Don't feel sorry .
                    http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                    Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If part of his playing around also involves opening his mouth, the chain noseband will be a help.

                      While I cannot explain the phenomenon, I have a friend who shows in a chain noseband and no martingale. It makes a difference and is not particularly tight.
                      *****
                      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Whenever pressure is applied between top of nose and chain, either by opening the mouth or by hitting the end of the martingale, the chain would have an effect. The key is to not crank it tight so the animal becomes numb to it. There must be a little play in the noseband so it is only felt when the horse does something unwanted.

                        Chains are pretty benign, really. It is when you get to prongs and tacks in nosebands that you get to questionable methods.
                        Laurie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Actually I think thats an excellent choice for your issue, chain or a stud nose band fitted tight with a martingale, should do the trick. It will only come into play, when he's playing no pun intended

                          Also you might flat him occasionally in a bosal, which helps him learn to yield to you by using pressure on the nose, just helps him get the idea of pressure mean yield.
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Punkie View Post

                            1) Can they cause any serious physical/long-term damage when *properly* used (not too tight, not hauling on the horse's face every 2 seconds, etc.)?
                            2) Are they constantly causing pain/significant discomfort or only when a specific amount of pressure is applied?
                            3) What is the difference between the wider chain and the narrower chain? I am assuming that the wider chain is less severe as it covers more surface area, but I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusion.
                            4) Are they legal to show in for the hunters/equitation? I have no expectation to use it, but if it ever came up, I'd want to be 100% sure to follow the rules
                            5) Any personal experiences with them? Good or bad?
                            6) Where can a raised, fancy stitch one be purchased (to match an Antares bridle or similar)?

                            Thanks so much!
                            To answer your questions:

                            1) If used properly and effectively, you should not have any long-term injury. I have a horse that wore one when I showed him in A/A and Later A/O. One particular show he was really luggy, and his nose did swell from the abrasion, I felt SO bad.

                            2)To this I am not sure, as other posters have mentioned, it should only work when the martinglae hits it. So you have to be very aware of adjusting it, and need to leave it a bit looser than a conventional cavesson.

                            3)Narrower the chain = more severe.

                            4) While I don't think it is explicity stated, I would not consider them "legal", they are unconventional. Consider them like those hunter hide the slot gag bits.

                            5) I have had the two I own in the strap goods bin for years. After I moved out of the ammy ranks, I don't think I've ever had it on horse. I have usually found another reason for the behavior, and a better way to fix it.

                            You mentioned your horse is only naughty on accasion at home. Could it be the lack of lunge if he's lunged at shows? Did he miss TO that day? I also think that sometimes our horses land "happy", and express themselves, if it's not pain related, and it's not dangerous, do you ride well enough to live with it at home?

                            6)Both of my abrasive nosebands were ordered from BEVAL, I believe that most higher end bridle companies that make pieces can build you one. You just have to ask.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OP, what are you doing bit wise? If he is just pulling you out of the tack on landing, not sure the stiffer noseband is going to help you with that particular problem.

                              Personally, I have never had one that goes in the same bit all the time. All have benefitted from switching them around and using something different when trouble occurs or they pick up a new evasion technique.

                              JMO but, if he is doing as you describe, switching to something with more of a gag or lifting action is going to do a better job then a more abrasive noseband...especially pulling down on landing.

                              I don't use one, don't think any others in the barn do but some others do, even at the shows. Properly used I have no issue with a little more control...I also don't think they do much other then reinforce the martingale. Maybe back a dull one up a little, keep them a little more attentive.

                              Think using any of this stuff needs to be well thought out. If you really understand why you need it and what it actually does, fine, go ahead. But...just think you may disappointed with this one that sometimes pulls and gets silly after landing but only at home. Just don't see it's going to do much.
                              Sounds more like he is fresh and taking a little advantage of the riders lack of strength. And needs a bit switch or a little more prep or a lunge before jumping.

                              Think the problem most have with any kid of gimmick is they get used for the wrong reason and/or overused or get used without any thought to what they do-and they end up not doing what you think they will or just creating a new evasion problem to replace the one you thought they would cure..
                              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Punkie, I apologize, it was meant tongue-in-cheek, no offense meant at all.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I come from Saddlebred-land where we do not use standing martingales on anything, but we do use the chain-lined noseband on occasion. Our use for it is when we have a horse who braces his jaw and will not flex to the bit. When the horse clenches his teeth, so to speak, his jaw circumference enlarges. It pushes out into the chain, causing discomfort, so he immediately relaxes.

                                  I use it as a tool to teach the horse not to clench his jaw... usually one or two rides solves the problem, with an occasional reminder ride now and then if it resurfaces.

                                  Depending on the horse, the wider chain can actually be felt more. Think about using a chain over the nose when leading with a halter - your lead-shank chain is pretty darn big. If you had a finer chain, it wouldn't be as effective (I get this from showing horses in-hand - my in-hand lead has a very fine chain and it is definitely ignored more often than the normal chain). But of course, every horse is different. See if you can borrow one to try before you spend the money.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    [QUOTE=Tiffani B;4038039]I It pushes out into the chain, causing discomfort, so he immediately relaxes.
                                    QUOTE]

                                    How exactly would discomfort and pain lead to relaxation?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      [quote=Equus_girl;4038143]
                                      Originally posted by Tiffani B View Post
                                      I It pushes out into the chain, causing discomfort, so he immediately relaxes.
                                      QUOTE]

                                      How exactly would discomfort and pain lead to relaxation?
                                      All the tack that we use to control them works on pressure which can be uncomfortable and release of pressure when the desired effect is obtained-i.e horse turns, stops or quite pulling...whatever. And this poster said discomfort, not pain.

                                      Over time, many horses don't listen so good so we need to increase the pressure as a reminder. Horses that jump or perform at speed (or light up like an ASB) also get more excited and forgetful no matter how much time you put in on basics. Sometimes they need a reminder to listen.
                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Tiffani B View Post
                                        I It pushes out into the chain, causing discomfort, so he immediately relaxes.
                                        Originally posted by Equus_girl View Post
                                        How exactly would discomfort and pain lead to relaxation?
                                        I think she just meant that they figure out tensing the jaw leads to pressure on the nose, so they "relax" the jaw (think "unclench" maybe, instead of "relax"). This doesn't exactly mean relaxation through the whole body, just that the horse figures out that trying to open the mouth and brace is not the easiest way to go in a chain noseband. Most horses will try to find the easiest route and take it.

                                        Comment

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