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Quarter horses are trained correctly, hunter jumpers ...

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  • Quarter horses are trained correctly, hunter jumpers ...

    Got in a bit of a tiff with a trainer at the horse show this past weekend in FL. Said trainer has quarter horses and does all the big QH shows. Her exact words "Our horses could kick all of these horses &%$# because they're trained to carry themselves correctly". We were watching a Jr. Hunter class which was full of very good company. I just found this so frustrating and wrong. Their dicipline is completely different than ours, horses are trained differently. I feel that their horses aren't carrying themselves correctly, am I the only one? So what exactly is it that differs our horses, the typical hunter jumper from the quarter horse? Training wise what is it that differs our methods and theirs?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Newyorknewyork View Post
    Got in a bit of a tiff with a trainer at the horse show this past weekend in FL. Said trainer has quarter horses and does all the big QH shows. Her exact words "Our horses could kick all of these horses &%$# because they're trained to carry themselves correctly". We were watching a Jr. Hunter class which was full of very good company. I just found this so frustrating and wrong. Their dicipline is completely different than ours, horses are trained differently. I feel that their horses aren't carrying themselves correctly, am I the only one? So what exactly is it that differs our horses, the typical hunter jumper from the quarter horse? Training wise what is it that differs our methods and theirs?
    I actually had a similar convo today with someone, it was one I don't look forward to ever having again - no end. I would just agree to disagree. Different discipline's call for different ways of training, and riding etc ...

    Comment


    • #3
      I think in the hunter/jumper section there is a very similar question posted...
      actually i know there is because I asked the question. If you look up previous posts that i have posted you can see the thread. sorry i don't have a link off hand.
      Varying responses really, its hard to justify a validation for your question becuase the training methods differ by the trainer not by the discipline or breed.
      One thing i can say about the QH thing is that the horses are expected to be dead broke and usually are very quiet on the flat.
      Now although the rule book states one thing (as far as the QH hunters go) you do see a lot of Winglish (western/english) horses placing very well in the AQHA stuff. But if a horse is winning at the "A" level as well then they have to be doing something right? agreed???
      Take it with a grain of salt, 95% of people think "their" way is correct... you'll fare way better off if you allow yourself to have an open mind.
      Im just delving into the QH world. I have two students that ive worked with for the last year and a half and in that time one has placed top 25 in youth, and another is 9th in the Select jumpers. I have learned so much from the QH world in this time. I love it really. Im really looking forward to world in August and November.
      Now you're not gonna see me stop going to the "A's" but its a fun circuit.

      Comment


      • #4
        Trainers in both worlds could learn a lot from each other. The QHs are broke to death on the flat, but if they had to gallop and jump with freedom in a plain snaffle, maybe some would act a little less broke. USEF hunter horses could, as a group, use more flat work and gain whole body adjustability. I used what I learned from the QH world and reining on my young hunters and my very good, very traditional USEF trainer really liked the feel.

        But rail class showing frames? It is really different, like oil and water. The top QH hunters cross over just fine to USEF, as many threads here have stated.
        Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
        www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Choo, choo, here comes the train...


          Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


          End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Seven-up View Post
            Choo, choo, here comes the train...


            Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


            End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.
            Amen, that almost just brought me to tears.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Seven-up View Post
              Choo, choo, here comes the train...


              Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


              End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.





              BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!
              "I have puppies instead of children. I'd rather ruin my carpet than my life."

              Comment


              • #8
                Just tell them to go get their horse and put him in the class.

                Then go get a cup of coffee and forget it.

                CSSJR

                Comment


                • #9
                  You apples and oranges peeps are wrong!

                  Or perhaps you are right about training at the bottom of each discipline.... or maybe you are correct when you look at 3/4ths to the traditional hunters vs. the AQHA variety.

                  But when you get to the very top, you will find correct horses and correct self-carriage in both worlds. Witness the instances of dressage riders switching horses with reining riders.

                  I adore the traditional hunters and think that a kid's or my own (amateur) show hunter or field hunter ought to be as broke and easy to ride as Western Pleasure horse. He just happens to gallop and jump (and make his own good decisions) while he's doing it.

                  I am very grateful for exposure to the Western world. They do get a young horse started well and produce horses that are mentally and physically easy to ride. Isn't that what "we" want too? If so, take a look over there. They are doing somethings very, very right.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Very early in the morning and I should know better but....the QH are not in front of the leg, the hands are not slightly in front of the withers, much further apart than H/J. QH fourbeat and they do not gallop. Put your leg on a QH and they "bridle up" not move forward. We have a friends in the WP world and they would never say a QH could kick but. When the WP had to "trot out" the coaches had a real problem as the horses just would not move. Look at the conformation - WP horses are built level, hunters are more uphill. I could gon on and on. Apples and oranges.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think the two are getting closer and closer.

                      In either group you'll see the horses going around with their poles lower than their withers. Look up the thread on here about hack winning trot and look at the pictures of the those (USEF) horses.

                      Compare them to the HUS horses..... USEF stride is bigger and faster and they ride with a slightly shorter rein, not much else different in the over all picture, except the horse obviously, but the overall impression is, well, of a horse traveling on it's forehand (in both groups). The speed at which they go around may differ but I think they have more similarities now than they used to.

                      Of course I'm sure I'm wrong about it all and don't know nut'n about nut'n as I'm constantly reminded on a daily basis.
                      Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        QHs have been very successful in the hunter world. Look at Cactus Jack. Years ago there was a story in PH about an amateur rider who successfully showed him in the indoors with an Appendix QH. She bought him for 20K, sold him for 40, and this was 20 years ago.

                        Not all QHs are short-legged, long-backed and downhill. Depends on the horse.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          for the most part, i agree with the apples/oranges folks. a good AQHA hunter is not necessarily a good USEF hunter. the judges just want different things.

                          but lately i've been spending a lot of time with friends who do the AQHA circuit, mostly WP and other western disciplines. and i am really beginning to appreciate the "western" and "QH" ways of doing things. i would love it if our hunters were expected to behave like QH's are. there is no "oh well he doesn't LIKE when i brush him there/picking up his feet/that end of the arena/jumps that are blue...etc." if it doesn't hurt the horse, he's expected to just deal with things that we often 'let' our hunters spook and fuss over. they're expected to stand until told to go, either on the ground or under saddle. i'm just loving the attitude towards the horses that when they're around people, they're on the job, and there is no time for nonsense or silliness.

                          riding wise, if you sit on a well-trained, properly muscled WP horse, it's OBVIOUS that they carry themselves 'correctly' by any standard. you feel that back round up, and the hind end drop down and under to power them forward. even though they go a lot slower than we're used to, and have a lower neckset, the good ones don't plop around on the forehand. to go slow the correct way takes just as much conditioning as forward.

                          that said... i think both disciplines have things to learn from each other, and i'm always glad to be exposed to something i'm unfamiliar with!
                          Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

                          PONY'TUDE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Technically, a well-trained (correctly-trained) QH should be responsive to leg, should NOT four-beat, and should still be working off its hind end, even if the horse has a more level topline (naturally, as some do, or through training). Unfortunately, shortcuts taken have given a bad name/impression to almost all QH hunters/HUS.

                            A well-trained (correctly-trained) hunter should also be responsive to leg and should also be working off its hind end.

                            I think in both worlds we see more horses pulling themselves along on their forehand than we really ought.

                            My understanding is that what we should see in both worlds is a horse that carries their head naturally, is accepting of the bit (but not "on the bit" the way we would expect an upper-level dressage horse), is responsive to leg, mannerly, good gaits (whatever the speed), and working off the hind end.
                            If we have to nail on talent, it's not talent.
                            Founder, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Newyorknewyork View Post
                              Got in a bit of a tiff with a trainer at the horse show this past weekend in FL. Said trainer has quarter horses and does all the big QH shows. Her exact words "Our horses could kick all of these horses &%$# because they're trained to carry themselves correctly". We were watching a Jr. Hunter class which was full of very good company. I just found this so frustrating and wrong. Their dicipline is completely different than ours, horses are trained differently. I feel that their horses aren't carrying themselves correctly, am I the only one? So what exactly is it that differs our horses, the typical hunter jumper from the quarter horse? Training wise what is it that differs our methods and theirs?
                              There are horses out there that win at both the AA H/J shows AND the very big QH shows in the hunters. The Doddriges' (sp?) on the west coast have several QH's and win a ton in both circuits with them. The daughter also has several nice WB's and wins a ton on them. So it is possible to be successful in BOTH worlds.

                              But I do agree that the majority of the QH hunters from the QH world would be lost in the H/J world but certainly not all.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Seven-up View Post
                                Choo, choo, here comes the train...


                                Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


                                End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.
                                Thank you.

                                We also just had this discussion a couple weeks ago, so here are four pages for the OP to sift through.
                                Originally posted by barka.lounger
                                u get big old crop and bust that nags ass the next time it even slow down.

                                we see u in gp ring in no time.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Well, having shown both, have to say the QH show horses ARE usually better broke overall then your average Hunter Jumper. Dead broke, bomb proof every place all the time.

                                  That does NOT neccassarily translate into making it down the lines or any brilliance over the fences themselves. And the H/J set does tolerate what they call "exhuberance" or "porpoising" while the QH types just call it "bucking".

                                  So my old QHs and Paints back when could go in a halter and lead rope, would all ground tie, allow me to open AND close the gate from the saddle (without letting go), mount/dismount from either side, tolerate kids under their bellies and even let you slide off down the rump.

                                  My TB and WB Hunters? Not so much. And it is not considered important.

                                  So, Yeah, QHs may be dead broke as a rule-that does not help them get around that course.

                                  And even in the HUS, the Open Hunter is judged on quality and movement, the QH is mistake and OUT. It's a different world.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Dinah-do View Post
                                    QH fourbeat and they do not gallop.
                                    I'd hope a USEF Hunter isn't galloping around the ring either

                                    It's rare to see a HUS horse doing the 4-beat "canter", and they don't do the gawd-awful trope that is common in the WP ring. Perhaps you are confusing the two - HUS vs WP? A HUS horse is actually moving out a bit. By the same token, it's not uncommon to see a USEF Hunter flat class, at anything but higher divisions, where the horses have zero suspension in their canter - still 3 beats, but not very impulsive.

                                    SHOULD it be that way? No. There are HUS horses who 4-beat - it's wrong, and they know it.

                                    Put your leg on a QH and they "bridle up" not move forward. We have a friends in the WP world and they would never say a QH could kick but. When the WP had to "trot out" the coaches had a real problem as the horses just would not move. Look at the conformation - WP horses are built level, hunters are more uphill. I could gon on and on. Apples and oranges.
                                    It's apparent now that you're talking about WP and not HUS - very very different.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      tarring all apples with the orange brush

                                      I don't think all QH's are down hill.

                                      They don't all 4-beat at the canter

                                      They don't all curl up when leg is applied.

                                      Again, I think you might be comparing bad apples to ok oranges. And if you haven't ever seen a USEF hunter offer a 4-beat canter or one verging on that, you haven't been watching carefully.

                                      So even if the average USEF hunter goes more correctly than the average QH HUS horse (not the WP) horse, I do give credit to the Western world-- even the average part-- for making really broke horses. Good to see some other H/J people finding value in that, too.
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Carrying themselves correctly *For The Job* is a whole lot different than saying "carrying themselves correctly"

                                        There is no "correct" across the board, if there were, a racehorse could win dressage a grand prix and vice versa.

                                        Comment

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