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Discouraged-lovely bolting horse!

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  • #1

    Discouraged-lovely bolting horse!

    I bought a 16.2 h, 5 year old (will be 6 in april) appendix gelding recently (september to be precise!) He is my first horse and I wanted something a little green so I (with the help of my trainer(s) could put some training on him. I am an amateur rider myself and cannot necessarily start the training myself, but wanted to assist with it in my lessons and learn more about the intricacies involved in training a horse.

    I bought the horse in september, as I said, and he was broke (WTC) and advertised as trained, but he was by no means trained. His canter was more of less a gallop because he was so on the forehand and his head was in my face. He wasn't bad...he just didn't know. He was bad on the right lead and has since then switched to the left lead and is now cantering successfully on both leads most of the time. Occasionally we will pick up the wrong one, but it isn't something that consistently happens and is usually just because of an error on my part. Since purchasing him, his canter is collected and I can actually sit it. On other good notes, we have been working on coming down into the bridle and doing pretty well at it, and are riding without a martingale. Jumping him is kind of in it's own catergory at the moment, since i don't really get to jump him too much yet since most of my rides are spent trying to get him to be softer and use his hind end more.

    Until he builds up more muscle to hold it, I get his adjusted once a month and he is worked at least 5 days a week for a good period of time.My trainer rides him once a week.

    I am discouraged because it has happened three times that he has bolted and ran away with my trainer. Only her though, never me, and never the other trainer. He locks his head, throws it in the air and just runs. She can't get him back for a good portion of time because he just locks up his head and neck. He doesn't always do this, sometimes he has great days, but when he gets midway through the ride someday he just gets pissed at what she is asking and he throws a fit. She is an excellent trainer, but demands horses to listen to her when she asks them too, and if they don't she puts up just as big of a fight as they are. I respect her and know it is nothing she is doing, but I hate when he runs away with her. It scares me to death, because I don't want my horse running away with people like that. It usually seems to just be a 'get it out of my system' thing with her, becuse he does it once and then is done and usually gives in a little. The other day, when he got extra pissy, he tried to rear a little too and she got off of him, worked him in the roundpen, got back on, and then had my other trainer hop on him. He finally gave in.

    They tell me it's just green horse stuff and he will work it out eventually, but while I don't ask enough for him to want to run away with me, i don't like him running away with my trainer either. Not to mention, it makes me a little nervous when I get on him. I just wanted some feedback and reassurance from people who have perhaps encountered this from their horses in the past.
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  • #2
    Well, I have no personal experience, but a lady at my barn had a young horse who did this to our trainer. She was a very green horse, our trainer was fabulous, but I still wittnessed the bolting scene a few times. It was when the trainer was asking for something simple, the horse didn't want to comply, horse just took off and really lapped the arena several times before she came back down to earth. (Despite the one-rein stop). It actually only happened a few times though. Seemed to be a temper tantrum/growing and learning phase for the horse. The instant the trainer was able to regain control she immediately had horse execute whatever she had been asking for before the bolt. After about three episodes horse realized bolting was not getting it out of work and it never happened again. If the bolting happens more than a few times though, I'd be concerned that the horse is learning a very, very bad habit. Perhaps working horse in smaller area where there is not as much room to run for awhile? Just guessing here.

    Comment

    • #3
      If he only has a problem with that one trainer...does she ride in her own saddle? Sometimes a poorly fitting saddle can make a horse misbehave. Also, I've worked with a lot of greenies and sometimes if you push them too hard too quickly, you'll get those behavioral problems. It sounds like your horse might be frustrated with what he's being asked to do because he either a) doesn't understand or b) can't physically do it. It's common with young horses because they just don't know the game yet!

      Bolting is never fun so I understand your concern. Generally when a horse misbehaves, I try to redirect their attention to something else (like a circle, shoulder in, etc) to try to get their brain between their ears again. I used to take the fighting approach but I learned that 1200 lbs is almost always gonna beat 120lbs.

      Good luck! Be safe.
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      • #4
        She is an excellent trainer, but demands horses to listen to her when she asks them too, and if they don't she puts up just as big of a fight as they are.
        I strongly disagree with that entire training approach.
        STRONGLY.

        This is a green horse.

        If your trainer is riding him (or any horse) in such a manner that they are having knock-down drag out fights, and she is pushing him to the point that he loses his brain and runs away, the adjective I would use would not be 'excellent'.

        I would immediately find someone else.



        Ftr, "The Noodle" in my signature had such a trainer when I first bought him.
        I got an email from the trainer one day that the horse had "just bolted" with him and "refused to turn from the diagonal" and thrown him into the wall.
        The trainer also constantly explained to me that I didn't ride well enough to bring him along, I was ruining him, he "could have" been a nice project, etc.
        Other boarders came up to me and asked, "Do you know how much your trainer beats your horse when you're not around?"

        I promptly left, and I think in the intervening three years I have used a stick on my horse on two occasions: he tended to stop at the first couple jumps in the schooling area at shows. After a couple stops he got a pop.
        My horse is now very sensitive to confrontation, so I have to ride him with the complete absence of it. Even using my leg with a "snippy tone" gets him defensive. (See video to see that he actually is trained, not just walking all over me.)


        My horse completely did NOT need to be trained with confrontation.
        He did NOT need to learn to "listen when asked to."
        It was NOT a problem with my horse.
        It was a problem with (created by) the trainer.


        Find someone else who won't make your horse hate his job so much he runs away.
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        • #5
          This just shouldn't happen. I personally deal with a lot of young horses, and "special" horses that have been damaged by others, as well as OTTBs.

          A green horse that is on his forehand should also be pulling you out of the tack over his wither. I own a 4 year old BIG grade WB mare that went like this. I never asked her to canter under saddle for months, because I new the balance was not there, and she would "run", and my instinct would say "pull"; run + pull =BOLT.

          Instead we lived on a 20m circle at the walk and trot, and played with balance, leg and contact. I ride this mare in a rubber full-cheek snaffle, and she is pushing 17h. It has been 9 mos since she came in, and she now Canters on that 20m circle, and trots a single X. All in her full-cheek, and with confidence.

          You did not say what type of bit your horse is wearing (if you did I missed it.); you also did not say whether this Appendix was western broke. They have some very important differences in the way they use seat, leg and contact.

          IME, I will just tell you that this method is UNACCEPTABLE, no trainer however "excellant" should inflict fear or pain onto a horse. This process is a long and tedious road, and patience in paramount.

          BTW: jumping (with the exception of a tiny X once in awhile), is completely inappropriate at this stage in the game.

          Sorry...

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by winegum View Post
            She is an excellent trainer, but demands horses to listen to her when she asks them too, and if they don't she puts up just as big of a fight as they are.

            While I don't really know *exactly* what you mean by this, this raises a red flag with me. You cannot get into a fight with a horse - they win. It is about persuasion and persistence, and if a rider is stuck in one particular method to get X accomplished, and that method does not mesh with a particular horse, that's when tempers can easily flare.

            They tell me it's just green horse stuff
            Any horse can bolt if the situation is right. I would not accept that it's "Just green horse stuff".
            and he will work it out eventually, but while I don't ask enough for him to want to run away with me, i don't like him running away with my trainer either. Not to mention, it makes me a little nervous when I get on him. I just wanted some feedback and reassurance from people who have perhaps encountered this from their horses in the past.
            What saddle does your trainer ride him in? If it's her own, it may not fit him well enough. When did the bolting start? It may be that her saddle fit in the early days, but some work has muscled him enough that it doesn't fit now. If it's your saddle, how does she place it compared to where you place it? If she puts it too far forward (VERY common!) that turns it into a saddle that doesn't fit.

            I would be taking a very critical look at what your trainer is doing and how.
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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            • #7
              I completly agree with everyones replys. I have a 13yo QH who looks like some wbx...hes very long, no a qh build at all 15h and a daisy cutter stride. He was doing okay on a contact last year and then he went on trial/was sold to a western barn..where they did who knows what to him but dumped him back off at my old barn and said he was 'too much'. He is a forward horse and he HATES being pulled against, you just have to use seat and gentle half halts and he collects(well used to collect) very nicely. So, I took him back and now he barely will go on a contact..right now hes in training with my trainer who is absolutley amazing, really, you should see this woman at work. He is incredibly nervous now of new people getting on and tenses up and runs and in about 5 minutes she has him stretching his neck and relaxing. Hes just working on trotting on a contact now. The tough thing is, I will be 18 soon and its gonna take him 1-2 years atleast to get up to the 3ft level(childrens hunter horses) and I dont really have that much time, because of a dec 21 birthday I get an extra year as a junior, but that would be possibly 1 year of showing him in the 3ft before moving up to show with the pros or showing with the greener adults doing 2ft6. So now im stuck with this horse and Ide love to sell him and buy something already jumping a course but no one wants a project horse these days.

              Comment

              • #8
                Bolting - to me - is the most dangerous behavior. Unfortunately I have experience with bolting and it affects me to this day every time I get on a horse that I don't know. Five years ago I bought an Irish Sport horse from a less than wonderful trainer in Washington state. He forgot to tell me the horse bolts on occasion. First time it was a ribbon being placed on his bridle at a show that spooked him, second time it was clipping a ground pole at the tail end of a lesson at home. It wasn't a training issue - he just got scared sometimes. My trainer's assistant bought him from me for a song and to this day he is still bolting.

                With your horse it sounds like a training/pain issue. I would pull him from the trainer before the bolting turns to a habit. Even the nicest horse can be ruined by a trainer that is too harsh. Last year I bought a horse that hated my over bearing trainer and began to rear, everyday, really high. So I quickly took him to a softer trainer and now he doesn't even consider it. He's gotten so good he doesn't need trainer rides to stay good - which says to me I have the right trainer!

                Good luck and ride safe.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Here is my two cents (which is prob ably what its worth)L Bolting is not a green th8ing per say. To me its a serious misbehavior. its laso one of the most dangerous of misbehaviors.

                  It needs to be stopped and immediately. I had a pony who did this when I first got him. I stopped it by putting the strongest bit I had in his mouth (it happed to be a combination hackabit) and putting him nealry on his haunches the minute he made a bolting attempt. Took this pony two tried before he realized bolting hurt. Smart pony. One of the owners at the barn had a green pony who pulled this crap with her kid. Scared kid right off thepony. Again, hackabit came out and it took pony two attempt before he learned this was not in his best interest.

                  I should state that I have ridden small ponies like this my whole life and understand their bodies and how they are balanced. I would not try this with ahorse becasue I am not sure I could hold one together correctly and not get hurt.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                    I strongly disagree with that entire training approach.
                    STRONGLY.

                    This is a green horse.

                    If your trainer is riding him (or any horse) in such a manner that they are having knock-down drag out fights, and she is pushing him to the point that he loses his brain and runs away, the adjective I would use would not be 'excellent'.

                    I would immediately find someone else.



                    Ftr, "The Noodle" in my signature had such a trainer when I first bought him.
                    I got an email from the trainer one day that the horse had "just bolted" with him and "refused to turn from the diagonal" and thrown him into the wall.
                    The trainer also constantly explained to me that I didn't ride well enough to bring him along, I was ruining him, he "could have" been a nice project, etc.
                    Other boarders came up to me and asked, "Do you know how much your trainer beats your horse when you're not around?"

                    I promptly left, and I think in the intervening three years I have used a stick on my horse on two occasions: he tended to stop at the first couple jumps in the schooling area at shows. After a couple stops he got a pop.
                    My horse is now very sensitive to confrontation, so I have to ride him with the complete absence of it. Even using my leg with a "snippy tone" gets him defensive. (See video to see that he actually is trained, not just walking all over me.)


                    My horse completely did NOT need to be trained with confrontation.
                    He did NOT need to learn to "listen when asked to."
                    It was NOT a problem with my horse.
                    It was a problem with (created by) the trainer.


                    Find someone else who won't make your horse hate his job so much he runs away.

                    Yes! My thbd was a "dirty stopper, bucker, bolter, scrape you off on the arena wall-er"... BECAUSE the idiot who was "training" him after his let-down would take his offer for a fight and lose every time. Poor horse. He still has his moments but I just don't go there and he goes "oh, ok..." no escalation. Some horse just do not tollerate that type of heavy handed rider and would rather fight to the death than submit. Ya' gotta finesse these ones and when they give themselves to you (trust) they really give their all.

                    If it were my horse I would ask said trainer to not pick fights or dump trainer. Took me a while to un-do what was done to mine.
                    "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mrsbradbury View Post
                      you also did not say whether this Appendix was western broke. They have some very important differences in the way they use seat, leg and contact.

                      IME, I will just tell you that this method is UNACCEPTABLE, no trainer however "excellant" should inflict fear or pain onto a horse. This process is a long and tedious road, and patience in paramount.

                      BTW: jumping (with the exception of a tiny X once in awhile), is completely inappropriate at this stage in the game.

                      Sorry...
                      Good comments above.

                      One clarification, though= good equitation is good equitation...regardless of western or english background. If a horse was going nicely under light leg/rein western a good trainer would be able to realize that and gradually upgrade rider contact and asking for collection without frying the horse's mind.

                      Since this is only happening with the trainer- my guess would be that trainer is asking for headset/collection way too early in the training without adequate foundation. Likely this horse has little to no lateral work and is being forced into a headset that is a common cause of "forced bolting". Lack of lateral seems to also be suggested by your canter issues.

                      Bolting is learned- and is not a common reaction if you horse has been started correctly. We are not talking a spook and shut down of a green horse- we are talking head up, braced against bit, run off- from the OP description.

                      The key to fixing your horse is lateral flexion followed by gradually increased vertical flexion. Someone above posted using the biggest ugliest bit you can find as a recommendation. PLEASE, please do NOT do this. If you have a horse braced on the bit forward and you slap on the brakes with a mega bit- that horse is a recipe for rear and fall over backwards.

                      Put your horse in a snaffle and start from square one. Do tons of lateral at the trot before cantering because if you are not a good seated rider- and you lean on the reins at the canter now- your trainer may have created a horse that now takes that as a cue to run out from under you. That makes most riders clamp with their legs and get a death grip on the reins until disaster.

                      Audit some lessons at other barns in your area and look for a trainer with experience rehab-ing or starting horses. Your trainer may be very good with advanced show horses or lesson horses- re-training projects just might not be her forte.

                      Good luck

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Honestly it sounds like none of you knows what you are doing.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JustJump View Post
                          Honestly it sounds like none of you knows what you are doing.
                          And what would YOU suggest?

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Silk View Post
                            Here is my two cents (which is prob ably what its worth)L Bolting is not a green th8ing per say. To me its a serious misbehavior. its laso one of the most dangerous of misbehaviors.

                            It needs to be stopped and immediately. I had a pony who did this when I first got him. I stopped it by putting the strongest bit I had in his mouth (it happed to be a combination hackabit) and putting him nealry on his haunches the minute he made a bolting attempt. Took this pony two tried before he realized bolting hurt. Smart pony. One of the owners at the barn had a green pony who pulled this crap with her kid. Scared kid right off thepony. Again, hackabit came out and it took pony two attempt before he learned this was not in his best interest.

                            I should state that I have ridden small ponies like this my whole life and understand their bodies and how they are balanced. I would not try this with ahorse becasue I am not sure I could hold one together correctly and not get hurt.
                            There is a BIG difference between a horse who bolts because he has figured out that's the ticket to getting out of work, and one who is bolting out of pain and/or confusion, as *seems* to be the case here.

                            I don't necessarily disagree with your approach to your situation and the former one in my 2 examples. It is a really bad idea though, in the OP's situation. To crank down on the breaks like that with a horse who is confused/frightened/in pain is asking for behavior worse than bolting - rearing, bucking, etc.
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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