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Are they really Amateurs?

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  • for saying what I wanted do!

    MargaretF, I do not believe that you are violating the letter of the rules. Although I don't like the idea of the barn getting paid for all the work you do! Can you find just one kid to mentor? That might be more rewarding than teaching a bunch of different ones. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    Someone posted that you are violating the INTENT of the rules. I don't believe that, either.

    And really, WHAT IS the intent of the rule?? Because I sure can't figure out what it is. All we have to go by is the letter.
    \"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?\"


    • The way I read the article of the AHSA rules that defines who is an amatuer, it *DOES* permit MargaretF to teach . . . as long as she is not receiving renumeration. "Renumeration" includes free board and gifts over $300.

      Am I missing something?


      • Frankly, by the letter of the rule, I too am a professional! And yes, I WILL thumb my nose to that! Good grief!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
        \"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?\"


        • Free board is not considered a "token" of appreciation -

          The tokens of appreciation are things like when the owner buys an amateur lunch because they rode one of their "string" in the U/S.


          • <<<<I can't afford to pay and now I can't even work off PART of an expense without being a "so-called" professional.>>>>

            NOT TRUE! You can drive the van, braid, groom, etc. etc. You can do ANYTHING in the whole wide world but make money off your skill as a rider/trainer. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO DEAL WITH?

            And, as for there not being enough 3' divisions???? How about Low, pre-green, schooling, baby green, special hunter.

            If you make money (or receive compensation in any form) that exceeds $300, the THE ONLY divisions you cannot ride in are the Amateur ones.

            Seems to me that it is not lack of divisions to ride in. It is lack of divisions with not-very-good-competition that is the problem for the complainers. If so, if you cannot compete at an A show given all the divisions available to you, then maybe your skills should be honed at the B level, instead of cheating at the A level.

            Showing is elitist. It requires money. All of us on this BB have more money that 95% of the population in the world. All of us on the BB are elitist. I have more money than others on the board. I sure as heck have a lot less than 99.9% of the people showing at Wellington and Indio this week. We all exist along a spectrum. As you pull on your TS and $400 GP coat and $600 custom Vogels, go ahead, complain that you cannot afford to show at the A level without working. Maybe SOMEONE out there will feel sorry for you.

            One time I was in NYC with Joe Fargis. He was bitching about not having money and being poor (because he was comparing himself to his clients who had megabucks). I said, "Joe, don't you think that the other people you see on the subway, when you ride it downtown, would love to have as much money as you have?" He looked at me in shock and said: "Pam, I NEVER ride the subway, it is unsafe. I take cabs." We both cracked up--- we realized how narrow our focus had gotten, living in the H/J world.

            And to MargaretF, I am glad you are stopping "giving back". Your students will be well served by a paid professional whose money you were earning but not receiving.
            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

            Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump


            • And to MargaretF, I am glad you are stopping "giving back". Your students will be well served by a paid professional whose money you were earning but not receiving.

              Thanks Pam, I will take that comment in the positive spirit I am sure it was intended.

              I am certain that the kids will be happy to have Miss S back as a teacher, since she was the original Saturday teacher at the barn.


              • Talking about different riding programs where you could help out, a barn I know in Maryland does a community service riding lesson program 4 times a year for the kids in their parks and recreation district. This is Clay Hill and Emmie Prettyman. She has been "giving back" to the community for 30 years and has never even been acknowledged since she is a professional horsewoman. I just happened to be there on a Saturday two years ago looking at a horse for sale when 12 little kiddies arrived for their first hands-on lesson for which she donates her facility, her horses and her time. Her Saturday students all help out tacking up and since I was just standing around, so did I, plus some leading and help mounting. When I came back home, I felt great, remembering the smiles and excitedness but I think I'm still an amateur and although if a barn around here did this, I might volunteer for this type of program, I don't think "teaching classes" every Saturday allows anyone to claim amateur status. And no, this is not sour grapes!
                I happen to show in the over 50 so how many of us are there? Not a whole lot and almost all are really amateurs either by virtue of experience or that old thing, age (stiffness, pain in joints, lack of time, etc).
                Note to MargaretF - Maybe you could get your barn to let you do a program like that too and you could help out. Since they wouldn't get paid for the lessons, using the program as sort of an Open House experience with Horses to expose the kids, it might be the solution to your problems. I am sure anyone as dedicated as you will find an outlet that works, both for you and your amateur status. Good luck!


                • seems to be largely a hunter/jumper thing.

                  In eventing SOME events have separate divisions for amateurs (though I think when we did, it didn't fill, and we had to combine it anyway). Some dressage shows have classes restricted to amateurs, but they are by no means commonplace.

                  And if there is an amateur class, there is always (or almost always) an exactly analogous non-amateur class, where the only difference is who you are competing against.

                  Therefore there is (or at least seems to be) much less incentive to "preserve" your amateur status.

                  For instance, my sister (who only events) gets a commission for helping friends sell about one horse a year. When I told her that there was a proposed rule change that would make that a "non-amateur" activity, her attitude was "Oh, well, I guess I'll be a pro then. No big deal."

                  Maybe what is needed in the hunters is a 3'6" "open" (not restricted to amateurs) division. There already are plenty of 3' unrestricted divisions.

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                  • I believe you have mistaken me for someone you know and against whom, apparently, you harbor ill will. My AHSA "house" is spotless as I have never competed and, at my age, don't have the ability (or interest) to start. I simply watch these boards (and a variety of others) in the hopes of learning something as I host a "sanctuary" of sorts which includes (among other unwanted creatures) two older "pasture ornaments" with varying degrees of infirmity -- both of whom will never see the inside of a show ring unless I were to show them a picture from a magazine. I maintain a copy of AHSA rules only because membership is a requirement for my equine mortality/theft insurance through Equisure. Sorry to disappoint you!


                    • As my name implies, I'm a frequent catchrider in the adult divisions. I've certainly had my share of questionable looks and probably more than a few people wonder about my scenario because I ride many different horses. But appearances sometimes speak louder than words. Truthfully, I'm so far down on the economy plan that I think my trainers find horses for me so they don't have to witness my depression when I'm horseless.

                      But appearances can't be denied, and are one of the major problems. If you're even moderately successful in the adult or amateur divisions, others will begin to search for a reason to fault you. Having been around for awhile, I do know of a few riders in my position (economically challenged) who do take advantage. They "groom" at shows for their trainers but funny how I come out to hack my horse at 5 a.m. and see them ride horse after horse in the back rings. When do they have time to rub or bathe a horse?

                      I do believe the amateur rules need to be scrutinized again. This year's ammendment certainly will help get a few shamateurs out of the ring, or at least make them a bit poorer so perhaps they might have to work like the rest of us who have full-time jobs and families.

                      And perhaps that's one of the reasons for the furor over MargaretF's position. We're all just frustrated and angered by those who read between the rules and don't follow them. There are many, many ways to make additional money so you can show. But when you ride or teach to do it, you're not an amateur. Allow the true amateurs to have a place. Maybe some people have lost the real meaning of showing--to have fun! Regularly beating people like me can't be all that satisfying after awhile! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


                      • And perhaps that's one of the reasons for the furor over MargaretF's position. We're all just frustrated and angered by those who read between the rules and don't follow them. There are many, many ways to make additional money so you can show. But when you ride or teach to do it, you're not an amateur.

                        Why is it so darn hard for you guys to believe that I like teaching, didn't take money or barter and truly didn't think I was doing anything wrong? If you must know, my father's trust fund pays for my riding and showing, not that it is anyone's business how I pay for my riding but since you guys feel the need to dissect every single particle of this issue, there it is for God and everyone to see.

                        I don't need to braid or muck stalls or teach or do anything else to support my habit, and I happen to have a great job, a husband who makes a good income and no kids. Would you guys like to see copies of my board checks or how about my tax returns?

                        At first I was amused, now I am annoyed, and I don't mean to single you out, Catchrider -- it isn't really directed at you personally, I am just frustrated. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]


                        • Here in Canada the debate is often not only about amateur vs pro, but an in-between category known as "non-pro"..does that category exist in the States, and if so, how is it interpreted? In Canada, many of the situations described here (working students, catch riders, etc) would get lumped under the non-pro category...even some trainers, if the cheques are made out to the barn/stable and not to them as individuals...there's much concern about this latter situation, as you can imagine...!


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> NOT TRUE! You can drive the van, braid, groom, etc. etc. You can do ANYTHING in the whole wide world but make money off your skill as a rider/trainer. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO DEAL WITH? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Yeah, sure, if I was at a show barn, where those services were needed, I could do that, but guess what I'm not. I'm at a very small schooling barn. My pony has never even seen a van. Plus I'm only 18 and in college, I get to go home on the weekends and that is it. During the summer is the best time for me to ride and yes I would like to be able to work off some lessons or a portion of my board by mucking stalls or schooling the school horses. Oh but wait, if I can school a horse than I should be a professional. Oh please. Anybody that can ride a horse over a 3'6" course aught to be able to school a horse showing at a level below that. And if you can't do that, then maybe "you shouldn't be at the A shows".

                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All of us on this BB have more money that 95% of the population in the world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Yeah, I wish that was true. You try living in a family where 50% of the income comes from tobacco, in which case if you haven't heard, continues to decrease at an ever increasing rate. I'm doing all I can just to go to C shows (and that doesn't happen very often either), even though my skill level along with my pony's is beyond that.

                            Man, I'm getting too upset, I think I'm gonna stop for now.


                            • margaret... your situation has obviously touched a nerve here, but try not to take it personally. it sounds to me like you are *not* in violation of the rules, since you are not getting compensated, and i hope you wouldn't give up your teaching because of the anger you've encountered here... i say, do what you want...


                              • I wouldn't take it personally either, MargaretF. People can be very jealous when it comes to money and horses. Keep your chin up.
                                It's 2016. Do you know where your old horse is?


                                • I think you must be one of the lucky ones, but if you find you are just aching to "volunteer", y'all come on down here! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]


                                  • I think that the AHSA has gone overboard in trying to seperate the amateurs from the professionals. It is clear that there is a problem, but the rules in place do not seem to be helping. Instead, they are forcing some people who truly are amateurs to either compete against the rules or turn pro.

                                    Here's a scenario (bear in mind that I am Canadian and have limited understanding of the AHSA rules)... let's say I lived down in the States and competed as a junior. When I turned 18, I would no longer be allowed to work off my board and still occasionally hack a horse for my coach; I could not help my friend warm up while my coach was gone by giving her a few tips (even if we were the same level of rider and she was just nervous); I could not work as a vet at the barn I rode horses at. Am I the only one thinking this is ridiculous?

                                    I do recognize the problem. I do agree that something must be done. But I think the AHSA needs to recognize a difference between professionals and capable amateurs.


                                    • I actually titled that response appearances because it appeared that you were breaking the rule. In actuality, it sounds as if you are the exception. Nevertheless, Miss S and others had different thoughts. I referred to your position in starting this thread, not breaking the amateur rule, because there are SOOO many others who do in fact cheat the system. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post.



                                      • Why not do away with the Amateur division altogether and just do adults...not amateur adults...or pro adults...just adults?? That would remove the incentive to fudge the rules and everyone with a birth certificate could be either a junior OR an adult..problem solved. Then you could each train (or not) and not worry about looking over your shoulder for rules violations, cheating, complying etc....Then the field would be more level.....
                                        The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.


                                        • Not "renumeration."

                                          Carry on.

                                          When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.