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Have you noticed that non-American horses seem to jump differently?

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  • Have you noticed that non-American horses seem to jump differently?

    I mean, I have no real idea, as I've only seen pictures... but whenever I go to an international horse sales site (especially the UK sites) the photos always depict horses with legs hanging loose and a flatter back. Always. So my silly question is, do they all really jump like that, or is it just a weird coincidence?

    Also, it seems that pictures of horses from the 60's seem different than pictures of them today. All the pictures of today's American horses, at least the hunters, depict huge bascules and knees to the eyeballs. The horses from back then seemed to jump, in photos, like the ones from the UK.

    So what is it? Different breeding? Different training? Different cameras? Or am I just seeing things?

    ~Erin B #1
    Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.
    Erin B #1
    erinbardwell.com
  • Original Poster

    #2
    I mean, I have no real idea, as I've only seen pictures... but whenever I go to an international horse sales site (especially the UK sites) the photos always depict horses with legs hanging loose and a flatter back. Always. So my silly question is, do they all really jump like that, or is it just a weird coincidence?

    Also, it seems that pictures of horses from the 60's seem different than pictures of them today. All the pictures of today's American horses, at least the hunters, depict huge bascules and knees to the eyeballs. The horses from back then seemed to jump, in photos, like the ones from the UK.

    So what is it? Different breeding? Different training? Different cameras? Or am I just seeing things?

    ~Erin B #1
    Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.
    Erin B #1
    erinbardwell.com

    Comment


    • #3
      ...you could give a serious "bump" in the schooling area. toss rails. you doan wanna know.
      You've heard about the "no smoking" jokes, right? Well, around some horses you really couldn't...
      [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

      Comment


      • #4
        You mean like poling?

        ______________
        I have a new horse!!!!!!!

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          This is basically what I mean.

          Typical UK horse ad photo

          Typical American horse ad

          ~Erin B #1
          Here's to our husbands and sweethearts; may they never meet.
          Erin B #1
          erinbardwell.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Well keep in mind that the majority of the horses being sold in Europe are jumpers --- they don't have a market for high class, American-style hunters over there as much as we do over here. Therefore, we Americans breed for the knees up to the eyeballs and the round bascule while Europeans typically breed for scope and speed (jumpers). That is one of the reasons why we can get hunters for cheaper over there --- they don't have as big a need for them and would rather fill their barns with top class jumpers. (Also, our horses are just priced insanely high in the US)

            Now I am no European horse sales expert, but also, we train our horses to crack their backs over fences and pick their knees up to be tucked neatly under their chins. In England the hunter classes most likely have a different approach to what a hunter should be like.

            ______________
            I have a new horse!!!!!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              spaz has it right.
              \"We came, we rode, we conquered.\"
              *Member of the TB Clique, Young Trainers clique and the Disgruntled College Student Clique.*

              Comment


              • #8
                The American one is hanging its lower legs, but at least its using its back. The English one is flat and pointing its knees, but he's super tight below the knees. Ok, I'm going to make myself unpopular here, but I've spent time in both places and here's my take:

                The Brits are extremely high on guts, but some lack finesse and an effective system.

                We Americans are extremely high on finesse, but can be pretty low on guts and get a little obsessive about 'the system', rather than just shutting up and riding.

                A lot of the Europeans seem to be combining guts, finesse and a good system of developing horses and riders and a typical German ad looks like this:
                Yet another horse I want...
                Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                Comment


                • #9
                  No, neither of those horse is jumping worth...
                  The German picture though, wow.

                  The one in the UK ad looks might it might make a decent speed class horse since it seems to get its legs out of the way well. If it lifted its knees up a little though.

                  The US horse is hanging its legs badly. He really could be jumping much better.

                  ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
                  Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat & drink beer all day.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    However, as spaz mentioned, the ads are targeting very different markets (the British one is definitely a jumper, while the US horse is clearly a hunter). Different qualities come into play, and it's tough to generalize an entire population of animals based on what you may see represented there. Compare that British horse to the ads for some American lower-level jumper horses, and you'll probably see a lot more similarities between their jumping styles. I agree with what CoolMeadows says about the different systems and about how we could all stand to learn from the German way of developing horses and riders, but again, you can't really draw any conclusions based on the comparison of the German/Swiss horse's photo to those posted by ErinB. The UK and American horses are, let's face it, nothing special. Judging by what I can read of the ad, that German/Swiss beastie is not typical at all. It competes at a much higher level than those two ever will and has had lots of success (it was apparently the Swiss champion of 5-year-old jumpers). Plus, its bloodlines make me want to wet myself - Cor de la Bryere, Landgraf . . . ooh la la, could we GET any nicer [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]? Basically, I've seen some British, American, and German horses with phenomenal talent and beautiful jumps. And I've seen a few of each whose owners really should be looking into alternative careers for them [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]. So, like I said - interesting observation. Do the photos really say something about the actual populations they come from? Who the heck knows? It would certainly be interesting to find out.

                    Cheers,
                    Susie
                    http://www.kachoom.com

                    "The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort
                    "That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yeah, and, umm...we americans don't "breed," either. Most of the bascule-y knee snapping drop dead hunters were imported. They were too slow/not scopey enough for the europeans (jumper).

                      I personally don't like either of those horses, but just with the english one..that horse, although not a pretty picture, is quite tight w/ his legs (unlike the other). But they are not up by his eyeballs. That horse is NOT going to be a GP horse of international calibre (see german horse for type), but he's not wasting any time in the air. He's going to get over that fence and be done with it. The american horse is hanging in the air.


                      also, I agree that this isn't something we can generalize about, esp. because neither of those horses are droolworthy and, more importantly, a horse cannot be judged by a picture (I have the UGLIEST picture of one of my horses who is tight, square, and round 24/7 and another that rivals any MSG-type hunter on another that is fast, but flat and pedestrian when it comes to form), so a type of horse can certainly not be judged by a picture. Now apply that to a region.

                      ------
                      no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

                      too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?
                      Um, I don\'t spell check. Deal with it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        i've been watching alot of World Cup videos and i've noticed that the Americans are usually alot more of a pleasure to watch then the Europeans. I don't know....i just don't really like the Euro style as much!

                        ~*Lindsay*~
                        A proud co-owner of CorLin PRO-ductions. Watch out horseworld, here we come!
                        Lindsay

                        Check out my blog at http://lindsayberreth.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          oh oh oh oh oh...Americans don't breed?? Those are fighting words....Snappy kneed, scopey, fluid floaty hunters are nearly ALWAYS THOROUGHBRED...Where is Europe do they breed those??I would like to go and buy several...All I have seen are warmbloods. (yuk)

                          Betsy
                          Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
                          The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Click on the Imagine That link in my profile. That's typical US jumping: really round, sky high kees and head low.

                            -Lauren-
                            [Vantage Point][Imagine That].
                            [Come As You Are] . [Once In A Blue Moon].
                            .Lauren.
                            .Viewpoint Stables.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              piaffeprincess - hmmm . . . to each his own, I guess. I agree that the Americans are lovely-looking riders, but I've always thought that the Euros are just as classy in their own way and actually more effective when you get right down to it. We've had a couple good threads on this topic. If you'd like to read them:

                              *The American Style, originally posted by Ryan

                              *"Flatwork" vs. Dressage - Are Hunters the Demise of American Showjumping, originally posted by rileyt

                              Cheers,
                              Susie
                              http://www.kachoom.com

                              "The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed." ~Sebastien Chamfort
                              "That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                As an aside, for floaty fluid American bred Thoroughbreds, check out the website for Allen Stock Farms in Idaho. If I were more computer savey, I would include the link. Sorry!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I think we ask that of our hunters - although, I will agree the TB's are the best... WHich is why so many good TB and ISH mares have wound up in European breeding programs!

                                  However, I know a wonderful Irish cob that can jump as prettily (and BOLDLY and AS BIG) as any Am TB hunter out there... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] And has a huge stride... Just not a particularly floaty one [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                                  Buddy again (My favorite cob)

                                  [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                                  co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
                                    oh oh oh oh oh...Americans don't breed?? Those are fighting words....Snappy kneed, scopey, fluid floaty hunters are nearly ALWAYS THOROUGHBRED...Where is Europe do they breed those??I would like to go and buy several...All I have seen are warmbloods. (yuk)

                                    Betsy
                                    Lead, follow, or get out of the way...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    I've seen lots of french thoroughbreds that would make spectacular hunters...if I only had the money [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                                    In any case, my ISH jumps like a million bucks. I've got some awesome new pictures of him that I need to scan. There is one where I rode like a giant dork to a good sized oxer and he jumped it anyways. His entire front end is seriously above his head. Talk about an athlete...

                                    I think a lot of the reason the pics might look different is that most horses dont need to really engage behind to do the hunters-the jumps just arent big enough...I'm talking the kind of engagement that comes from actually sitting in the tack and correctly rocking the horse back on his haunches so that he can clear the height and width of the obstacle. In both of ErinB's photos, the jumps are not sizable jumps for a horse, so this isnt really illustrated here. The Germans do this to an extreme, but I'm sure none of us can contest their success. This(collection before jumping) is something I never learned in the states, and I rode with some of the best trainers on the 'A' circuit, and that is still very difficult for me...as illustrated by the photo of myself described above [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                                    [This message was edited by Medievalist on Mar. 25, 2002 at 01:25 PM.]
                                    ---WHX---

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      jumphigh83: yeah those are fighting words b/c you and I have different tastes in horses. i really don't like the look of most TBs but LOVE the clunky dumbblood look. I mean it's just a matter of personal preference at that point.

                                      ------
                                      no more SATs no more SATs no more SATs!

                                      too bad i can't ride anymore...urg. why? WHY?
                                      Um, I don\'t spell check. Deal with it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I just got done watching the Hunter Classic from West Palm Beach on tape.

                                        I guess none of them down there know that TBs are the only way to go for nice hunters. Those poor confused folk were using lots of warmbloods! What were they thinking!!! Just because they were quiet, moved well and jumped spectacularly... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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