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Professionals & Amateurs on the same horse?

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  • I originally brought up this topic on another thread, but then promptly left on vacation so I have not followed up.

    On another thread, the idea was brought up by Snowbird to make A and AA shows really special, cream of the crop shows, so to speak, that people would have to qualify, or earn the right to enter. At that level, in my opinion, real amateurs should be able to school and ride their horses themselves, without trainers doing all the work. For people who want trainers to tune their horses up, then they can ride in the other shows.

    With the current rating system, where anyone who wants to can show up and ride in the A shows, then I agree that it is impractical to implement a single rider policy, unless, as has been mentioned, this division is added to what is already in place.


    • Hi Lisa! Just curious - do you show in the adult amateurs or amateur owners?


      • Ash: Just a correction, but it doesn't matter how strong the dancer. If the technique isn't there it isn't going to happen. At least, that is how the best schools train their dancers. You are missing the point (no pun). Riding should require the same commitment.


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:
          Hi Lisa! Just curious - do you show in the adult amateurs or amateur owners?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          I hope my answer doesn't invalidate the point I was making regarding hunter/jumper shows [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img], but I currently show a newbie from the race track in combined training (beginner novice level this year), with a couple of forays into schooling jumper shows. As my horse becomes more experienced, I will show him a bit more in the jumpers.

          I used to ride hunters (adult amateur) for several years, before I found that I liked the speed and challenge of the jumpers and combined training.

          My ideas around having only the rider who competes the horse being allowed to show the horse (at certain shows/divisions)comes from the combined traning competitions, where this rule is in effect even at the very lowest levels. At first I was amazed at the idea (I did ride hunters for awhile, after all), but I've come to appreciate it, and I think it has personally made me a better rider.


          • (asterisks added)

            "Anne, I very much like your idea. There would be some problems with enforcement and the riders and trainers would have to go on *the honor system* in part, but it is an excellent idea."

            Equine Photography in the Northeast


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
              From a former insider:
              I used to ride, and show, though only a few times on the A circuit. I envied the people showing on it. My *dream* was to get nice horses and just travel the circuit. <sigh> How romantic.... Now, reading all of your opinions (all valid) and with all the c*** that goes on now in the ring and behind the scene and w/ the mileage rule, I am so glad I gave it up. If I won the lottery tomorrow, other than buying some ponies back as retirees, I don't think I'd even buy one, let alone a string of fancy hunters.

              I'm old enough to remember when the best *HORSE* won, not the trainer who administered the best meds, or the amateur (oh PuhLeeze!) w/ the mega thousand $$$ horse prepped by pros. This last two have an insidious argument for their use, it's kinder to the horse. "With proper pain management, Bozo can do the children's jumpers for a few more years." How about retiring the poor lame thing? "Big Name Trainer ALWAYS gets Bozo ready for me, that way I don't mess him up before a class" Take up knitting, or learn to ride, or just appreciate your horse. Riding for most a/a is supposed to be a relaxing diversion to your hectic work schedule. Why would you add MORE competition to your life? Go hack in the woods. Riding should be about the horse, please, not the chase for ribbons and personal glory. Let's remember which half of the human/equine partnership is doing 90% of the work here. In my Humble Opinion.

              ...But in my opinion, horse showing was more fun when the emphasis was showing off your horse to everyone (with good sportsmanship) and not chasing ribbons to increase the sales price.

              I've been trying to formulate a response... now I don't need to - you just said it all.
              Equine Photography in the Northeast


              • "Originally posted by Bascule: Sorry Colin. That scares the ever-loving hell out of me. I'm not sure if I am more appalled that this
                happens or by your attitude."

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harris:
                I agree, Colin....appalling...just appalling...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Me, too, Colin..... I find this attitude (obviously held by many) to be very frightening - not only for the immediate danger of participating in a sport and at a level for which you aren't prepared, but - almost more - for the damage done to the sport in general by advocating/condoning this practice.
                Equine Photography in the Northeast


                • WHEN? When was horseshowing fair? When did only the best horse win? I remember when horseshowing was ONLY a rich person's sport. It was elitist and political-much more then it is now! If you didn't belong to a big name money family you better just forget it! But now people like Emily Williams and Kelly Farmer can win at the National because even though the resources were not there, the talent was.

                  I also remember when there were NO DRUG RULES!(at least they weren't enforced, if they even existed)) People always showed on ace and pain killers-no one thought anything of it. Older professionals like Rodney Jenkins could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end! No one wanted to win any less 'back then' The things that went on to get the jumpers ready pale in comparsion to what we see now-plastic chips-HA! Try barbed wire and rails with electricity running through them! Remember there were no stewards in the collecting rings back then.

                  I am not sure where this horse show fairy tale took place-but it certainly wasn't any where near the rated shows in the past 40-50 years!

                  Some people will do whatever it takes to win. I am not saying it is right, it is just a fact of life.
                  ************************************************** **********
                  The government is best which governs least.
                  -Henry David Thoreau


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bascule:
                    Ash: Just a correction, but it doesn't matter how strong the dancer. If the technique isn't there it isn't going to happen. At least, that is how the best schools train their dancers. You are missing the point (no pun). Riding should require the same commitment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Absolutely!!! And dancers don't have to account for another brain/opinion/attitude to deal with!
                    Equine Photography in the Northeast


                    • QUOTE]Originally posted by Bascule:
                      Ash: Just a correction, but it doesn't matter how strong the dancer. If the technique isn't there it isn't going to happen. At least, that is how the best schools train their dancers. You are missing the point (no pun). Riding should require the same commitment.[/QUOTE]

                      My point was: you cannot stand in toe shoes (en pointe) with out the proper muscling. It is physically impossible to do. Once you get the proper muscles you CAN go en pointe EVEN if your technique isn't perfect. Will your instructor let you? No, but physically you CAN do it. Riding at the grand prix level takes years of practice as well. Would your instructor let you do the grand prix after one year of riding, hardly! But that is not what we are debating here. I think it would be fair to compare a beginner adult rider to a 3rd level ballet dancer. Capable of performing many movements (showing in the Adult Amateurs) but not capable of going en pointe (Grand Prix) If your argument is valid-then all riders would have to be capable of performing at the highest level in order to perform at a lower level.

                      Am I missing something here?
                      ************************************************** **********
                      The government is best which governs least.
                      -Henry David Thoreau


                      • Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape?
                        We are talking about the adult amateurs here!
                        I know very FEW that show in it just to collect ribbons and up the sale price of their horses! Have you seen the majority of us ride? Most are good, however inconsistant! We do it for fun and getting away from home on the weekends! Getting some good ribbons is the icing on the cake! So what if your trainer hops on your horse to correct a problem that you have caused from your unsupervised riding at home. I have to say that I haven't witnessed trainers schooling an A/A horse up to the point that the rider hops on the horse to go in the class (ok maybe once). I'm frustrated because this seems to have become a more heated issue than lets say... the mileage rule and lack of membership representation in the AHSA!

                        [This message has been edited by HATTIE (edited 08-28-2000).]

                        [This message has been edited by HATTIE (edited 08-28-2000).]


                        • Hey there, Hattie -- had to ruin your roll here, but the only reason I showed at Tahoe was a) to Win; and b) to sell my horse! LOL!

                          Although I'm usually quite inconsistent, I had to really get it together for that show! LOL! Sea Urchin is the same way -- we go to win! But the best part is that when we don't win, we still have a blast!

                          And, let me tell you.....having Carleton Brooks show my horse for 2 days in the low hunters made all the difference in the world when I showed -- which is what helped me to win -- and to sell my horse -- and to have fun.

                          xoxoxoxo, bets


                          • Oh Colin - I almost mentioned "except for Colin". You are one of the few! Hey more power to you - send me some of that extra money! LOL


                            • But Hattie, Colin won't have any money left over after the Middleburg soiree at Mosby's!!!
                              \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E


                              • Hattie & JustBay - already spent it ALL -- on TWO NEW BAY MARES!!!LOL! Green as can be -- believe it or not, the best, most broke horse I have right now is my 2 year old paint!!!! LOL!


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:
                                  I know SEVERAL beginners that show in the 3' AA division on the "A" circuit! They have only been riding LESS THAN A YEAR! Why do they show? Because it is FUN! Why does the trainer let them? Because the trainer makes MONEY. Why does it work? Because the beginner has enough money to have a safe mount that takes care of her.

                                  What's wrong with that??? NOTHING! The rider is benefiting by have a fun recreational sport. The trainer is benefitting by more business. The horse is simply doing his job at the 3'.

                                  Your very right. Also 3' is not big. I mean ANY horse that is sound can jump 3'. What is the point in having a professional if they cant tune up your horse. I mean THATS WHY THERE ARE PROFESSIONAL DIVISIONS. im sorry but i cannot miss school to ride in the pregreen during the week and loose. Thats WHY i have a trainer. She rides my horse in the professional division and I do the childrens. It works out well. If the A/A wants to have the trainer show in the warmup then thats FINE. If you dont want to ride against trainers DONT SHOW IN THE WARMUP..


                                  • Colin, did you say 2 BAY mares??? UMMMMMM...very interesting!!LOL..

                                    Oh yes, I also too like to go and win, and if it takes a pro-ride to tweak it that much to make it better-- YES! YES! YES!!!!!!!!!