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Professionals & Amateurs on the same horse?

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  • #81
    Smiles in zone 2 we have a "novic" division for the adults, it's called Pre-adult and the fence height is 2'6" while it does not get year end awards for Zones, it does get year end awards for the local organizations.


    • #82
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smiles:
      First someone said that if you can't ride at the level your competing at then you shouldn't be showing. (Example a novice rider in the A/A.) Well my thoughts are why don't we give the novice divison a rating?
      I'll probably be accused of being old fashioned, but, IMHO, if you can't ride at a certain level of competence, YOU SHOULDN'T BE SHOWING.

      Someone earlier said something about liking taking the "adult beginners" to the same shows as the Junior Hunters.

      Why are the "adult beginners" showing? They should be working at home until they are no longer beginners.

      Someone else referred to riders that knew they weren't good enough to show without the trainer prepping the horse. Good- then they should know that they AREN'T READY TO SHOW AT THAT LEVEL.

      I always thought the purpose of showing was to demonstrate that you and the horse have reached a certain level of accomplishment.

      IM(Not So)HO, if you and your horse are not accomplished enough to put in a decent round WITHOUT needing the trainer to tune up the horse- you (and your horse, and your trainer) should be AT HOME working on developing that level of proficiency. Not at a show trying to win ribbons by whatever means possible.

      OK, I said I was old fashioned.

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


      • #83
        Janet: I absolutely 100% agree with you. That is what schooling shows are for, not the rated shows. By the time you get to the A-level shows, you should be skilled enough to get yourself around and your horse should be confident enough to be a steady partner. Otherwise stay home or compete at a lower level. How rewarding can it be to spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to do the A's when you or your horse aren't ready?

        A-level pony clubbers don't start out at the A level. They start at the bottom and work their way up. Only the strongest and most dedicated survive.

        [This message has been edited by Bascule (edited 08-25-2000).]


        • #84
          Janet, you ARE old-fashioned! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] But I don't think that's a bad thing! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] So many people lament that showing has changed, it's not fun anymore. Maybe it's not, or maybe it's fun for a different group of people (the people who are new to riding and showing?).

          It does seem that the goals have changed, and that the goal of riding is to go to shows and do well in classes. It used to be, and for so many people it still is, to become a better rider and for the ones who are already better riders, to make nice horses for themselves and others.

          It may be difficult to reconcile when people have different goals in showing (they tend to behave in ways that seem strange, alien, unthinking, careless, etc.) but really there is not much to be done about it. We can't control other people, we can only control our own actions.

          What I think is important is that we continue to have discussions & that the leaders in our sport such as Linda Allen (who is extermely visible to us online and also does not have the current unfortunate controversies against her that George Morris does) and many others (the Prudents for example in their Towerheads interview) continue to seek ways of change that will (1)strengthen the longevity of our sport and (2)accommodate everyone who wants to participate.
          \"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?\"


          • #85
            You know, I read something about the Survivor winner, Richard. Basically, he deserved to win cause he played the game the best. The game was about surviving, not being nice.
            I got to thinking, maybe that applies to showing, the hunter game is about having the nicest looking trip, not about being a good rider or horseman. If the nicest looking trip is created by having a trainer school a horse to death then so be it, i guess.
            Subjective sports will never be fair. Luckily there are many unsubjective horsesports!
            Also, if your not competitive at "A" shows because you can't afford a packer, or you don't want your trainer showing your horse, go to local shows!
            Just as an aside, do alot of trainers push their ammys and juniors to do the "A"s?
            The witchy witch witch of south central NC.


            • #86
              Bascule, you stated earlier that "you train your horse". By definition doesn't that make you a trainer who doesn't except renumeration for services? Just a point to ponder, but I will say a ground person helps most people out. And, as an aside, when I prep my clients horses it is only hacking. Make sure they aren' t going to kill them at the show, make sure they feel sound, make sure I get them carrying themselves correctly. Isn't jumping 95% flatwork anyway?
              Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com


              • #87
                Magnolia- you are so right! Horse sports are not the only sport with the 'win at all costs' attitude. We see this in the anorexic 14-year-old gymnast, the track star who abuses steroids and the team owner who spends millions to buy the best players. Is it right? No way, but it is a fact of life. People will do anything to win!

                To answer your question, I think a lot of trainers push their students to show because there are more $$$ to be made at the shows, then giving lessons at home.
                ************************************************** **********
                The government is best which governs least.
                -Henry David Thoreau


                • #88
                  No Ash, unfortunately yesterday I was gone 18 hours and made 100 dollars. And, one was left with me from a show the day before of another trainers, to get her "qualified". This is called a professional working with another professional professionally! I do it because I love it, not for the money. I could make more at home teaching for 8 hours
                  than I could at a show EVER. This holds true for all of us. And sometimes, we'd rather NOT be at the show we are at, but are there to please our client(s). If you are in Zone 2, August is a VERY tiring month.
                  Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com


                  • #89
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
                    I got to thinking, maybe that applies to showing, the hunter game is about having the nicest looking trip, not about being a good rider or horseman. If the nicest looking trip is created by having a trainer school a horse to death then so be it, i guess.

                    Absolutely. That is how "the game" is currently defined.

                    The object of the discussions here is (I think) to discuss ways in which we think the rules/objectives of "the game" should/could be changed, for the benefit of the riders, the horses and "the sport". (And from my perspective, that means developing better riders AND better horsemen.)

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                    • #90
                      Jane: Thanks for your input. Yes, I guess in theory you can look at it that way. Not sure what your point is though. Yes, I train my horse. I have had good training over the years that has taught me how to stand alone and make decisions.
                      I take pride in the fact that my wins are my wins and nobody elses. When someone rides against me and my horse, they are only riding against me and my horse and our experience together, not my trainer, etc. I would feel like crap, if I took any of my rides or winnings because someone else tuned my horse for me. That is just a personal choice and I think a part of true horsemanship. People have lost sight of what this was supposed to be about-- to learn to ride and improve, not to make sure the trainer gets on 15 minutes earlier next time. I am not anti-trainer. I just think at this level there should be some sense of purity. Do your homework at home. Come to the shows to see if you did it right. If you didn't go back home and work until you get it right. Shows should be testing grounds, not the place for training-wheels. JMHO.

                      [This message has been edited by Bascule (edited 08-25-2000).]


                      • #91
                        Jane, I was referring to the A shows. I agree, taking one student to a one-day show is not going to make you money if you have many lessons you could have taught at home. But if you are a trainer that takes 15 horses to a multi day show and is collecting $75+ a day daycare, $50+ rides and $75+ a day in trainer fees you are going to make more $$ then if you stayed home and taught those people lessons. (If you have an up-down business, that is a different story) If you, as the trainer, know you are going to a show, why not push people to go? It is more $$$ right? You canÂ’t be at home to teach lessons anyway. I am not faulting anyone for this-it is the economics of the horse world!
                        ************************************************** **********
                        The government is best which governs least.
                        -Henry David Thoreau


                        • #92
                          let me just say that the pro ride is regional I think. It isn't everywhere you see it all the time. I know in New England it is quite popular, as a young pro I know and I argue all the time about this. I find horses my customers are capable of riding. how long it takes to get into the show ring is dependent on how hard one wants to work, and how green the horse is that was bought.
                          Regardless, we always find a suitable quality animal. I try to stay away from the pro rides other than hacking and keeping them fit, as this is important to me. Many trainers tell me their clients will leave if they don't provide results (i.e. the win) and they feel they have to ride, to ensure the win. Some of them I think want the win as quickly as the customers do. But I think that is why there is a barn for everyone, a trainer for everyone etc, it is a free enterprise.
                          Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com


                          • #93
                            No point bascule, just comments to think about. I am wondering if you are at an advantage if you are a professional amateur? vs one that is learning how to ride, and needs a trainer, etc. I never have prepped my horses for my clients before, and don't intend to in the future. The hacking is most recent at the clients request, I have all green horses and or green riders in my barn. You would never catch me sitting on one for a client that knows its job. I will however sit on one when the client tells me it is pulling, and we are working on that at home, so i can decide things like which bit I may use that day etc. I am really on the fencepost with this one. It never makes me feel like the pro rided ones have an advantage as I think I do my job very well with my 2 feet on the ground, so it has never been an issue to me. With so many quasi pros, I wonder if the pro ride helps or if the horse gets tuned to the pro instead of to the clients ability? Anyway,
                            we have always done fine, we just take a longer time to get there, but, I also think our horses stay sounder because of it.
                            Owner/Trainer of http://www.plumstedequestrianctr.com


                            • #94
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jane Ervin:
                              I do it because I love it, not for the money. I could make more at home teaching for 8 hours
                              than I could at a show EVER. This holds true for all of us.

                              While this may hold true for you personally, it most surely is NOT the case that most trainers I know on the A circuit would make more money staying at home teaching lessons. At a show where training fees can be $100 a day, times say... 10 people, trainer's hotel and food expenses paid for by customers, day care (which $ does NOT go to the grooms), it does not take a scientist to figure out that successful trainers are making big bucks. Hopefully, of course, they also enjoy it...


                              • #95
                                I see a couple of young shingle professionals in my area go to the schooling shows and show their clients' horses to death over 2'6"--even at schooling shows.

                                Now, that is clearly a case of the pro wanting the ride, even if their clients are totally capable. Is this happening elsewhere, or is it isolated?
                                \"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?\"


                                • #96
                                  I completely agree with you, Pewter. Why else would top trainers spend all of their time at horse shows? For the love of it? I think not! FOR THE $$$$$$$$$$$

                                  They make a FORTUNE at the shows! It would be a much easier life to stay at home and teach lessons -- imagine...a "home"???? Instead, they bust their butts, living on the road, and not for fun -- they make big $$


                                  • #97
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jane Ervin:
                                    I am wondering if you are at an advantage if you are a professional amateur? vs one that is learning how to ride, and needs a trainer, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    This isn't directed at you, Jane, but my mom has an old saying she loves to tell her children...

                                    "There will always be those who have more than you, and those with less, those who are better, and those who are far worse, the goal in life is to constantly try to improve one's self and work toward a worthy goal. Be your best at everything you do.."

                                    If Bascule isn't making money off of her personal work with her own horse, she's an amateur. Period. No one is calling for a limit on the horses' talent, so why put one on the hard working riders? If that's the case, why not split the division for horses that cost under $85,000 and have to be ridden and one for those over that price who can do the trip on their own, regardless of who's on their backs...?

                                    By the way, isn't everyone training EVERY time they get on a horse? Problem, as stated by most people here, seems to be that most riders are putting in NEGATIVE training that has to be countered... Something else to think about.
                                    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford


                                    • #98
                                      Professional amateur? No. Proficient amateur? Yes! I don't make a dime doing it my way. The "adults" are supposed to be a division for those of us who have to make a living doing something else besides horses. Because those people have a distinct advantage. It isn't supposed to be another division for a professional on remote, which is what is too often happening.

                                      Tiramit: Well said.

                                      [This message has been edited by Bascule (edited 08-25-2000).]


                                      • #99
                                        "Why are the "adult beginners" showing? They should be working at home until they are no longer beginners."

                                        Why let any beginner show? Make 'em stay home until they can jump 3'!!! Including those little short stirrup riders! And why don't we just shoot the leadliners! They can't even steer, and half the time don't even want to be there.

                                        Don't start penalizing people because they are just learning to ride. If they want to show, LET THEM. But put their division at the end of the day and not at rated shows. Beginner classes should be a very positive experience for the rider so that they keep coming back and develop into tack-buying new-attire-wearing trainer-paying point-chasing check-writing adult ammies. Duh.
                                        Man plans. God laughs.


                                        • I know SEVERAL beginners that show in the 3' AA division on the "A" circuit! They have only been riding LESS THAN A YEAR! Why do they show? Because it is FUN! Why does the trainer let them? Because the trainer makes MONEY. Why does it work? Because the beginner has enough money to have a safe mount that takes care of her.

                                          What's wrong with that??? NOTHING! The rider is benefiting by have a fun recreational sport. The trainer is benefitting by more business. The horse is simply doing his job at the 3'.