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"Incident" at Tryon

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  • "Incident" at Tryon

    Has anyone seen this video footage and if so, has anyone at USEF been alerted of the following and if so, what are they doing about it?

    scroll to about 35 min and watch

    http://tryon.coth.com/article/live-s...ursday-830am-2

  • #2
    I assume you're talking about the rider Brianne Goutal using the crop on her horse. Is that correct? I'm only watching from my phone but it looked like the rider used the crop on the horse's head/neck several times as a correction because of a run out or frustration at the run out. The crop was used again on the last fence on the horse's rear just before he jumped. And then there was see-sawing of the reins (maybe?) after going through the timers. Is that what you wanted to discuss?

    I only ask because I have a tiny screen and my time stamp might be wrong. It did look like a harsh correction to me but I hardly think I'm qualified. If you are very sure of your interpretation and feeling that it is bad sportsmanship, maybe you could contact USEF and explain what you didn't like.
    When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.
    -William Shakespeare (Henry V)

    Comment


    • #3
      For those not able to watch, it's Brianna Goutal on doing what looks like maybe a welcome stake or something?

      Horse goes around okay but looks sulky. 3/4 of the way through or so horse throws right shoulder and bulges out forcing a circle. Rider gives two good whacks. Horse continues to bulge. Rider circles again and gives three whacks. (All behind the saddle.)

      Continues course. Horse is still behind the leg. Rider gives a whack in the air over the last fence, three fences after the issue. After they land, rider gives two more whacks and gallops off.

      After galloping rider asks for hard bend and counter bend. Shortly after, there is a combination of the rider pulling up the horse and the horse providing some sulky shooting backwards. Rider then legs forward and horse starts forward then sulks backwards again and get a little light in front. Camera goes to next rider.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
        Has anyone seen this video footage and if so, has anyone at USEF been alerted of the following and if so, what are they doing about it?

        scroll to about 35 min and watch

        http://tryon.coth.com/article/live-s...ursday-830am-2
        I don't know, maybe ask THEM? We can't exactly do much from here, it's not our horse, not our show, and we have no influence as a bunch of anonymous internet people.

        Sorry this screams like you want to start something here?

        I trust that the right steps are taken at these shows, so I don't get my panties in a wad about something that happened. It's over. Unless you plan to ride with her or send a horse to her then I would take a closer look

        Be careful gossiping, remember what happened here with Tori's family! Ouch! No thanks.

        Comment


        • #5
          That's a much better summary than what I could see on my phone! Thank you, ABN!
          When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.
          -William Shakespeare (Henry V)

          Comment


          • #6
            I know there is a limit to the number of whacks, but i can't seem to find it, or if it relates or "per incident" or "over entire course." I would assume per incident, and each set of three whacks was related to a different incident in my mind.

            Honestly, nothing she did looked that bad to me. Horse was firmly corrected three times - for bulging and throwing a shoulder twice, and for getting behind the leg.

            It was a little ugly at the end, but it seemed to be the reaction of the horse. It didn't look to me like the rider was "tearing the horse up" or being otherwise overly aggressive with her reins.

            Looked like a schooling ride on a horse who wanted to sulk behind the leg. Which is a pretty scary disobedience at jumps that big. I'd want it corrected, too.

            Comment


            • #7
              I was wondering when this issue would pop up on the forum.

              Honestly, I would be shocked if this warranted more than a strict talking to. I have very little familiarity with the letter of the law in these situations admittedly.

              If anything, I think her actions may have been the most detrimental to herself/the horse's training. If you notice, Horse comes in as an exemplar of "cool cucumber" and leaves very agitated. I know some horses that become troublesome at the gate after undergoing this kind of transition in the ring.

              Weird shoulder bulge though. Didn't seem overtly like spooking to me? Just like, non-responsive. I trust Brianne knows her horses well enough to know how to correct them though.

              Comment


              • #8
                The crop was used only behind the saddle. A couple of smacks when the horse didn't turn to the combination. A couple more when the horse tried to stop at the gate on her circle back to the combination. One off the ground over the last jump and 2 on landing.

                I don't know the horse to comment as to whether the smacks at the last jump were uncalled for. But the horse went to buck on landing after the first jump, and BG gave a good kick to send the horse forward who then focused on the job. So, the actions at the last jump could have been the right training move for this horse, which did start having a bit of a meltdown when trying to leave the ring. I didn't see anything excessive about the correction into the combination, and the horse definitely did not get hit on the head.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lace View Post
                  I was wondering when this issue would pop up on the forum.

                  Honestly, I would be shocked if this warranted more than a strict talking to. I have very little familiarity with the letter of the law in these situations admittedly.

                  If anything, I think her actions may have been the most detrimental to herself/the horse's training. If you notice, Horse comes in as an exemplar of "cool cucumber" and leaves very agitated. I know some horses that become troublesome at the gate after undergoing this kind of transition in the ring.

                  Weird shoulder bulge though. Didn't seem overtly like spooking to me? Just like, non-responsive. I trust Brianne knows her horses well enough to know how to correct them though.
                  Wasn't spooking...being very gate sour IMO.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I thought it was sulky the whole time. When it walked it I thought it was more sulky that "relaxed." As stated, it needed some good kicks to get going. I thought the rider did fine not going directly to the stick. There were examples of less drastic corrections to get the horse moving along better. The shoulder bulge was definitely not a spook, it was being naughty. And considering the tenor of the whole round I don't think a smack and a hard gallop over/after the last fence was unwarranted.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      I thought it missed the fence on the turn because it didn't know where it was going at first and then it got gate sour. Not trying to gossip but the max allowed whacks is 3 and the rider significantly over stepped that allotted amount. The tantrum after the final fence was completely inexcusable. the entry is listed in the results as "eliminated" so perhaps someone did take action>?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
                        I thought it missed the fence on the turn because it didn't know where it was going at first and then it got gate sour. Not trying to gossip but the max allowed whacks is 3 and the rider significantly over stepped that allotted amount. The tantrum after the final fence was completely inexcusable. the entry is listed in the results as "eliminated" so perhaps someone did take action>?
                        I disagree that the horse didn't know where it was going. The rider told it where it was going and it disagreed.

                        Rider gave no more than 3 whacks per incident. As I asked before, is it per incident or per course? I would assume per incident, personally.

                        And the tantrum at the end appeared to be on the horse's part, not the rider. She didn't tear up on the horse. She asked for bend and counter bend and horse resisted and tried to go backwards. My horse did the exact same thing just the other day because she was mad I was making her half pass.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IPEsq View Post
                          Wasn't spooking...being very gate sour IMO.
                          Mmm, I think you are right!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If the horse was eliminated (which the results do say - they don't say 8 faults) then you should be happy. "Something" was done about the "incident."

                            I don't think elimination was necessary, but I'm not going to argue if officials disagree with me and thought it required elimination.

                            You should be thrilled. Why so upset then? Do you think something else should have been done to the rider?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Not sure what the OP's agenda here is other than stirring up nonsense with non-horse people who don't know what they're looking at. Unless I'm blind, the OP is blatantly lying about the head hitting.
                              Nothing in that round seemed concerning to me other than the fact that I wouldn't want to ride that sulky of a horse over fences that large. Then again, many people have their trainers do all the schooling on their horses so they never have to make corrections themselves. Maybe the OP is one of those riders.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                if you think that is being asked to bend, you are blind. There is a difference in asking a horse to bend and giving a horse severe dental work in the middle of a horse show arena

                                This is a large, publicly attended horse show. My first concern is the welfare of the horse. my 2nd concern is; how does this look in the eyes of the general public who might be watching this occur. My response to my 2nd concern is "the public would be viewing this as a form of abuse and this could turn into a PETA spectacle."

                                There is a time and a place for appropriately....appropriately... disciplining a horse for poor and dangerous behavior. I do not believe this was in the best interest of the sport or the welfare of the animal being competed.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I think the rule states that "excessive" use of a whip is not permitted, but does not provide a specific number of times that you can hit the horse ... could be wrong though, I am not an expert on the rules.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
                                    if you think that is being asked to bend, you are blind. There is a difference in asking a horse to bend and giving a horse severe dental work in the middle of a horse show arena

                                    This is a large, publicly attended horse show. My first concern is the welfare of the horse. my 2nd concern is; how does this look in the eyes of the general public who might be watching this occur. My response to my 2nd concern is "the public would be viewing this as a form of abuse and this could turn into a PETA spectacle."

                                    There is a time and a place for appropriately....appropriately... disciplining a horse for poor and dangerous behavior. I do not believe this was in the best interest of the sport or the welfare of the animal being competed.
                                    So what are you *doing* besides complaining to us, an audience that can't actually help you?

                                    She *was eliminated*. is that enough or do you want this to escalate?

                                    I'm all for supporting horse welfare, problem is- what qualifies as "too much" rough riding? good question.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Please refer me to the '3 whack limit' rule. I checked the USEF rulebook, but couldn't find it.

                                      Agree with other posters - from my viewing of the video (which wasn't particularly clear on my computer), I wouldn't consider this excessive use of the whip, nor did I see see-sawing of the mouth. I saw a strong bend left and right.
                                      ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I see your point. I would think that expecting these animals to perform at exact perfection in a new environment is actually discounting the fact they are living breathing animals with minds of their own.

                                        For instance, if your dog attempted to go after a squirrel, you would correct that behavior, because it is dangerous to you, the dog, and the squirrel.

                                        Miscommunication over fences these large can be exceedingly dangerous. I don't think her correction was out of line.

                                        Comment

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