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Zone 2 Mystery????????

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  • Zone 2 Mystery????????

    Is it only in Zone 2, that Rated Shows go to the highest bidder? The horse show dates are passed around, bought and sold, and even traded off amongst horse show managers with a blatant disregard.
    The same managers have a monopoly on all the dates available, stifling any "newcomer"!
  • Original Poster

    Is it only in Zone 2, that Rated Shows go to the highest bidder? The horse show dates are passed around, bought and sold, and even traded off amongst horse show managers with a blatant disregard.
    The same managers have a monopoly on all the dates available, stifling any "newcomer"!


    • #3
      I've wondered that for years - and yes, it is true.

      However, every time someone tries to change the date system, managers vote it down. Takes money out of their pockets.

      This is something, however, that should and must be changed!

      Found the view, but too expensive
      co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!


      • #4
        Please follow this up with USAEQ.

        The fact the same show has always held these dates but cannot this year.......but then hang on to those dates so nobdy else can have them. Maybe move the show around to different facilities-cancell all the 3'+ stuff for lack of entries but still sit on the dates.........and nobody can start a better show within x miles because they are protected????????

        The way we rate shows MUST change.

        The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.
        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


        • #5
          Well silverbells I'm not sure what you mean. I think what you see is that some show dates are owned by a group of people and so the show date stays with whoever there is in the group that has a facility as a management group.

          For example the Monmouth Group is I think 3 partners, and they lease a show grounds, then other associations use the same grounds so to you it feels like the show date is locked in but it really isn't. I know I've had most of my dates for 25 years or a little less. I just check the calendar and see what's available. I have an advantage because we were out of horse country when we came here so I could have almost any date I wanted.

          Garden State is run by basically the same people with the same fences as the Sussex Benefit Group. They have a bunch of people so those shows can be run there or move if they want and those dates won't be available until they run out of owners.

          In fact in Zone 2 every year there are dates available to new shows for a C/B Show. But, someone has to sit down with a calendar and the USAE list and a ruler and a map. A Shows are harder because you have to find three days. There was a whole new circuit opened in Connecticut a few years back, and
          another one on Long Island about 10 years ago.
          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


          • #6
            It is well past the time when shows should be rated only by virtue of the money offered in the USA Rated Divisions.

            There should be a rating based on the level of difficulty. A C Rated Division might be once around and down the middle, a B Rating should have a greater level of difficulty re:Oxers and maybe the number of fences. ETC. ETC.

            There used to be a Star Rating for a show. You took picures of your jumps gave dimensions sent a sample of the footing, photographed bathrooms and food truck. I think it would be possible to rate the show grounds aand or facilities available.

            If the show were rated by level of difficulty surely we have enough experts to describe what tests were necessary on a clorse as they do in skating. Maybe even have a course set and let the rider choose the more difficult options and be given a rating up from others who chose the simple course with lower difficulties. Then it would be possible to have a A/B/C show at the same time in the same place.

            Qualifying from these shows to a Regional ride-off and if you win there you qualify for the East Coast or West Coast or Central ride offs, then from there you go to the National.
            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


            • #7
              Snowbird, who cares. Yesterday is history! Today, I mean today, year 2002, most of the shows in zone 2 are boring. You need new management to bring in new ideas. Whether the show be A/B/C rated and held over 3,4,5 days, it doesn't matter. I want quality jumps, correct striding, interesting courses, good footing, competent, fair judges, and a managment team that cares to treat exhibitors with respect. I can count on one hand shows in zone 2 that meet these expectations.
              If there are any exhibitors out there that disagree, please respond.


              • #8
                STEVIE AND SILVERBELLS - I agree with your assessment of the vast majority of shows held in Zone 2. That is why that I, although a resident of Zone 2, choose not to show here but for 1 or 2 shows a year. I would much rather show less often at rider/horse friendly shows, then show all the time at shows where they only care about the almighty buck. The bottom line is that so long as trainers and their client choose to patronize the inferior shows, the management has no incentive to change. Until people wake up and decide to hit management where it hurts, i.e. their pockets, nothing will ever change.


                • #9
                  I don't mean to be contrary, but there are a few shows in zone 2 that are well run and pleasant, not to mention exhibitor friendly. There are also some management groups that put on a wonderful show. Andrew Philbrick runs fantastic jumper shows at Hunter Farm. Stadium Jumping does a marvelous job with Lake Placid, I Love New York, and The Hampton Classic. The North Fork Classic is an excellent show, managed by Kim Perlman, a zone 2 trainer and rider. Gary Kunsman runs an exhibitor friendly show; always doing his best to keep everyone happy despite weather conditions, etc. The Saratoga shows in May and June are wonderful with footing, stable management, and helpful staff. Monmouth has always been pleasant with good footing, and Sussex is widely enjoyed and popular.

                  Admittedly these are all A shows. I don't know if you were referring to a broader spectrum of shows or not.


                  • #10
                    FaithOnParade-I agree with you that Andrew Philbrick has some nice shows, but they are jumper shows and I show hunters. As for Saratoga, been there the past two years and found it to be very friendly. As for Lake Placid, I Love New York and the Hampton Classic, I don't consider these to be exhibitor friendly if the A/A have to show both of their days during the week as I am not a trust fund baby. I actually have to work for a living.


                    • #11
                      Have you ever thought to discuss this with management. Sadly, today many management teams feel they don't run their shows any more, they run them to please the exhibitors. If you have some good ideas that are constructive I can't imagine any management that would turn you down.

                      I have to agree with you that the AA Shows are not exhibitor friendly. So what would you change?

                      I don't know a show management that deliberately says I don't care about the footing. Every manager I know works really hard at their faciltity footing and fences. We all want to please the exhibitor how else can we pay the mortgage?

                      As to boring well a lot of shows I know have tried innovative ideas added different classes and no one enters them. From my perspective as a manager it appears the idea is to arrive no earlier than 5 minutes before you show get your classes done as quickly as possible and then leave to get back to the barn in time for lessons.

                      There are trainers out there who have fit if their clients so much as smile at someone from another barn.

                      So, I'd be interested in how you would like to see the shows changed. If you don't want to do it here please feel free to email me. I am always interested in new ideas.
                      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                      • Original Poster

                        CLEAROUND said it very clearly! Hit management where it hurts....THE POCKETBOOK! If we stop supporting shows where management is rude, the footing is poor etc....this may help! This year alone I attended several A rated shows in Zone 2, and just because the division had less than 6 in it, as we were ENTERING the ring, a paper was shoved in front of me to sign to WAIVE the prize money....But the points would still count! And how about shows now charging office and grounds fees.... We all know the biggest offenders.


                        • #13
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Bells:
                          as we were ENTERING the ring, a paper was shoved in front of me to sign to WAIVE the prize money....But the points would still count! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                          But wasn't the prize money given to a "scholarship fund" or "year-end banquet?"
                          I would never attend a show that forced you to give back money. I would mail in a show evaluation and make a loud stink at USAE. Exhibitors put up with this crap. Zone rules or no zone rules, Silver... this arm-twisting is unethical and soon to be against the rules...


                          • Original Poster

                            The prize money remained in the pockets of Horse Show Management! This had nothing to do with a scholarship fund! Usually we know when we are attending horse shows that benefit a particular charity. It is mentioned all over the prize list, As far as being unethical....well you be the judge! This prize money waiver sheet was handed to me just as the horse was starting his opening circle...This happened at 3 different horse shows, however the management was the same at 2 of them.


                            • #15

                              To the best of my knowledge, no horse show who asks you to sign a waiver puts a gun to your head when they ask. Simply don't show there. If you know which management does this frequently, don't go. How much easier could that be? Quit complaining! It's getting old!

                              Show management can opt to cancel the classes and who does that benefit? What about the exhibitor who just wants to show? The ones who don't have the mega bucks to follow the rest of the gypsies on "the circiut". Cut the fiancially poor but normal people some slack for once. Just MHO.


                              • #16
                                I show only in the breeding classes and love my 10 min in the ring, but these "extra" fees are getting ridiculous! I decided to not go to a show in Zone 2 (and know others who are doing the same) because to show 1 horse in one class it was $95!!!

                                $25 class fee
                                $10 late fee (with breeding horses you don't know til you are putting them on the trailer that morning whether or not you can go)
                                $25 office fee
                                $25 yard fee
                                $10 AHSA drug fee
                                Other breeding shows it only costs $35 or $45 for the breeding class

                                Some of the shows are just getting unaffordable to me as an on the line competitor - I can't imagine what showing in a division costs these days!
                                Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
                                Breeding a quality animal should always be the goal
                                \"Proud Member of the Hunter Breeding Clique\"


                                • Original Poster

                                  PlotTwist....First off when you have braided, traveled, entered the show, schooled, and commenced to compete, it seems senseless to pull up when the waiver is presented. This happened at 3 seperate shows, which I have not attended since! Secondly, you presume that only the rich should play at this level. I am not rich, and work hard for my money. I expect to get my money's worth! The only thing old on this thread, is your train of thought!


                                  • #18
                                    Silver Bells,

                                    Sorry if you think my train of thought is old, but your's must be off the track if you show up and see there's not enough people in your division to pay for itself. Show managers hold shows to make money, not to give it away.

                                    Give the most show managers a break. I can't think of a harder way to earn a buck than to deal with horse people like yourself.


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Sorry that I am not psychic! Unfortunately driving for a minimun of 1 hour, and taking for granted that things are going to run as stated in the prize list, I guess, is too much to expect! Has anyone noticed that more and more disclaimers are surfacing in many prize lists? Horse Showing is a luxury, and should be treated like any other customer service oriented industry! I feel sorry for those of you who settle for less. You must have money to burn, or better yet, give it to "hard working horse show managers" that deserve it more than you...


                                      • #20
                                        You name it, I've seen it (and filled out a show report about it).

                                        Schooling areas that are not configured according to the rules (ie separate horse/pony hunter/jumper areas)


                                        do not have enough equipment to school a goat with, let alone 2 horses at once...

                                        Footing that just plain sucks (rocks, deep, hard, glass, uneven etc)...

                                        Jumps that have not been moved in 10 years...

                                        Jumps that exceed the height allowed or are purposely set below the height allowed...

                                        Time alloweds that have nothing whatever to do with the length/difficulty of the course, but are just wild guesses...not to mention timer personnel that do not know the first thing about what they are doing...

                                        Management holding up the schedule for exhibitors that have yet to show up, and are rumored to be on their way to the show (but have yet to actually have the courtesey to enter)...

                                        Management changing courses at the demand of a BNT whose horses don't jump (fill in the blank with: rolltop, liverpool, skinny, etc) well.

                                        Managements who allow the showrings to be monopolized by unjudged warmups with unlimited trips permitted. ($$$ch-ching!$$$)...

                                        Endless manipulations of minimum entry requirements to the point where a Gurnsey cow wearing a saddle is considered an "entry" for the sake of "filling" a division so that points may count, whether or not prize money is actually awarded...

                                        Steadily rising entry fees, without a hint of a corresponding rise in the amount of prize money awarded...

                                        Managers who are "of record" only, and don't actually run their show, or hire the ones who do.

                                        Well run Zone II shows are the exception to the rule, IME--and it doesn't help to support only the good ones, because there aren't enough of those left!

                                        Whoever cited North Fork, must not have had a taste of the day this year (Thursday?) that ran till the wee hours at night, with many classes postponed; no one had any idea how many entries were in any given class at any given time or was able to estimate when any certin class would be LIKELY to conclude ("20 more to go" at 2pm, "20 more to go" at 2:30 pm, "20 more to go" at 4 pm.....? what's up with that?)

                                        No thank you, next year will find us at Culpepper or Ellenville, or VT, or somewhere, anywhere but Zone II...