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Rant about hunter "training" from a hunter rider!

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  • Rant about hunter "training" from a hunter rider!

    I'll make it short:

    showing at thermal this weekend, just modified adult stuff. but love to watch the pro divisions as well as the juniors. now I am no dummy, I know most hunters spend time on the lunge line, but I guess I thought generally they started off as kind of quiet horses. (hence hunterland for them)

    well, it rained. and the schooling area was knee deep, and the lunging area GONE. So dumb me, I thought, well the hunters might be a little fresh. Instead I saw NUMEROUS BNT and their riders on horses for over two hours! Some literally never stopped cantering, a couple jumped for HOURS the same oxer out of the terrible footing. Horses tripping, white foam dripping off the hocks, sweat in their eyes, you name it. One horse that shook its head after the songle oxer came out, and the BNT SCREAMED at the girl that worked for her that the horse was way too fresh, and she better not stop cantering until the jog or he dies. (jog was 40 mins)

    1. how are these horses not lame?
    I don't even ride my horse if the footing is that bad- how are they wading through that and staying sound? meds?

    2. are our show hunters too fit?

    3. if the weather is clearly inclemate, couldn't horses be expected to be *slightly* fresher (not bucking lol, but they could overlook head shaking)

    rant over.
    When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

  • #2
    I think the lungeing and over-work does affect their longevity in the sport. And in bad footing you always risk a bowed tendon or suspensory injury.
    Eight Fences Farm. Mansfield, MA

    Comment


    • #3
      hmmmmm.....

      I was at Thermal and showed this past weekend. I didn't think the footing was that bad, only in a few parts of hunter 1 warm-up. And a hunter that is shaking his head after jumping in the warm up ring is probably too fresh.

      Comment


      • #4
        I know most hunters spend time on the lunge line, but I guess I thought generally they started off as kind of quiet horses. (hence hunterland for them)
        Horses are selected for the hunter ring (at least theoretically) based on the quality of their movement and the beauty of their jump. Not because they are necessarily super quiet, although that can certainly be a plus.

        The reality is that the judging in the hunter ring tends to penalize horses that display freshness, particularly in the lower level classes. The working horses - ridden almost exclusively by pros - tend to be permitted a bit more expression, but in that class, it is the quality of the jump first and foremost; whereas in your average children's hunter division, suitability (read: quiet, easy, tractable) is more heavily weighted. So the horse that can lope the lines, jump in a gorgeous bascule, and land softly cantering away is going to be the winner.

        I would guess that those BNTs were prepping horses for amateur and junior clients who are used to riding horses that are very well prepared and quite quiet. I am not defending the approach of RTD (like LTD, but from the tack) but I would be surprised if many horses were jumped for hours on end. Those trainers need to keep those horses sound, after all.

        Hopefully with the new emphasis on hunter derbies etc, the horses who show a bit more enthusiasm will be rewarded more frequently, but for the time being... head shaking, etc is discouraged. And if the horse shook its head with a pro (or good-as-pro designated barn rider) on it... it WAS probably too fresh.
        **********
        We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
        -PaulaEdwina

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        • #5
          I agree. I think everyone is ready for the hunters to be a little less "machine" like.
          Eight Fences Farm. Mansfield, MA

          Comment


          • #6
            I know I'm ready to see a course that is a little more exciting than inside line to outside line to inside line......

            Comment


            • #7
              I was there too and though I didn't get out to the show grounds on Saturday until 10, I didn't think the footing was bad either, and I'm a footing weenie. However, I am from the PNW, where we're used to a little rain.

              Knee deep? Those be some short legs! What I experienced in the hunter schooling areas was about 4" of sandy mud on top of a good base that my horses didn't have any trouble in, aside from a little stop-peek-at-the-puddle-n-pop over one fence in Hunter 3 or 4. I wouldn't call that a footing problem, as my guy's a looker and I should have predicted it and kept my leg on.

              Was it messy and bad walking around? Most definitely! But not in the rings, IMO. And the sudden temperature drop, combined with some strong tent-flapping winds the couple of days before did make for frisky horses.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alterrain View Post
                2. are our show hunters too fit?

                3. if the weather is clearly inclemate, couldn't horses be expected to be *slightly* fresher (not bucking lol, but they could overlook head shaking)
                Nope, show Hunters are not "too fit". Fact preference is to keep them a little under dead fit so they can work the edge off if they end up too fresh. Fine line between fit enough to stay sound and not so fit they are an iron horse if they end up too fresh.

                And, Nope. They do not overlook head shaking or anything else that detracts, they just compare it to all the other trips and score it accordingly. Judges do not make excuses for any behavior, they just judge.

                Far as what you saw...these horses live in 10x10 stalls for weeks with no turn out and most are fit enough to jump 2 to 4 days a week (like, 30 to 40 fences at heights to 4' and up), do their flatwork and get turned out at least several hours a day at most farms. They get FRESH at the shows and they are not going to trot out of that in 15 minutes.

                I also suspect a little exaggeration here as have seen some bad s*it in my time but never, ever seen anybody jump a single fence for HOURS timed on a clock, never knew a real BNT (that was any good) that had several hours to scream in a muddy warm up ring and...well...that girl that jumped that oxer and had the horse buck got yelled at for jumping one that was too fresh to jump. And trot/canter for 30 or 40 minutes on a fresh and well conditioned show Hunter is not going to break them. Hel*, you do that in most clinics. And they do sweat between the back legs and it foams and runs down the leg sometimes if they are working hard. But working hard is not in and of itself any kind of abuse.

                Not defending anything here, some overdo it and others depend on a tired horse for an unsuitable match with a less capable rider in the show ring. And some do work them into the ground and beak them.

                But what you describe is a a little exaggerated unless you had a watch and sat and timed the whole thing.

                Cheerfully admit to sitting on mine for nearly 2 hours a time or two for the specific purpose of wearing them out a little. Course, prefer to take a long hack with that time but if there is no room? Schooling ring.

                And if you walked by and saw me cantering then walked by again and hour later and saw me cantering on a sweaty horse-you might assume I was cantering the whole hour NOT. But it might seem I was. Have an idea that is what happened here.
                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I totally agree with findeight.

                  Back in my hunter showing days, if my horse was fresh, I'd work him relatively hard until I got him "where I wanted him" - loping around a course, but still expressive in his style over fences, and able to go around on a loose-ish rein in the hacks. Otherwise, I'd have a firebreathing dragon O/F and a wrestling match in the hack.
                  Adversity is the stone on which I sharpen my blade.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I used to think it was ridiculous that some trainers/riders would lunge their horses for what seemed to be ages; then maybe schooled them for what seemed to be ages - and then I realized #1) Many of these horses are stabled at shows and therefore not able to be "turned out" all day (or night) and therefore do need to get some exercise or work in. While it is not perfect - 8 hours of turnout has to be compressed into a shorter time. I do not condone over-working, over stressing horses, but I do understand the need for a horse to get out and be worked - if nothing else his gut has to be moving. So from that standpoint I understand the lunging and schooling. And then there's the prep for the rider's standpoint... that is another issue (i'm being devi's advocate right now)

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                    • #11
                      I find it so silly how a while ago some local made a topic about me, my clients horse, and a good friend of mine who played assistant at shows. The horse was FRESH, and since I don't agree with lunging a horse as long as you could while working I had her "ride it out", much less than an hour, and jumping for less than that. Well, a spectator came to COTH, gave detail by detail of the horse, rider, and trainer and the replies were not in my favor, talk of "cruelty" etc...

                      I was shocked, now I glad to see the greater of you are on my page, or I am on yours! I'm not one for creating soundness issues, but I'm certianly one for preparing a horse for it's rider!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There's a difference between riding a horse into the ground and riding 'till it's ring ready.

                        Learn the difference.

                        Maybe you shouldn't be showing at Thermal until you do.
                        Proud Mama of a BOY rider

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I (as a hunter rider)take regular clinics with a dressage coach (from Europe so he doesn't quite get the whole hunter thing) and he has mentioned on several occassions that the majority of the hunters he's seen over here do not get worked enough and should do more canter work. I highly doubt the footing was knee deep maybe a little sloppy but no person or horse could get through knee deep mud.

                          My horse can get rediculously fit and if you wanted to could keep going for hours. Lungeing doesn't work so I warm him up under saddle. If you saw me at a show you might think that I was cantering all that time but that's not the case.... lots of transitions to get his mind focused and lots of walking, bending etc. I warm up for half an hour.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think we're being a little hard on the OP here...expecting her to fully understand what goes on at these shows-

                            I used to think people over worked thier horses at shows...doing things that i felt bordered on cruelty. Then a friend gave me another perspective...these horse have a great life...best food, best vets, etc...while there is true abuse at shows the majority of horses are well cared for.

                            These Show horses are athletes...athletes work HARD...my suggestion is go to the barns on the horse's day off and see how they are...most will greet you at the stall door. you'll see them wrapped, bedded and comfortable. They will probably be contendedly eating hay or snoozing...

                            Moments in time do not tell the whole story...

                            For what it's worth, i'd rather ride my horse down then drug her to get the desired temperment in the ring.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Phew, nice to hear from Crackerjack. I am an eventer and have one horse in particular who is very anxious and fresh at events. I never quite get him settled before I enter the ring or startbox and always wonder how hunter riders do it. The 1st rant/post sounded a little exaggerated, but she admitted it was a rant. I'm OK with that. Then I read the bit about the horse shaking it's head on the landing side. That would be the least of my worries...

                              But the thread seems to imply a link between fatigue and a calm performance in the ring...until Crackerjack. I believe that if you want your horse to jump at its best, calmness comes from submission, obedience and throughness, not from fatigue. Bending, transitions, and basic dressage shapes all create submission and throughness. If only it worked well enough for my wild man, but you get the picture.

                              Now what to do about settlinghorses for their lower level riders I don't know. We event trainers aren't allowed to warm up the horses (or coach/click/do anything from ringside), so my clients don't compete unless they can do it safely themselves. We do, however, live with some head shaking on the landing side.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Don't forget - these horses are being stabled 24/7. Lots of super quiet horses become freaks when stuck inside day after day, after day...

                                It takes a lot of hacking and ring work to make up the difference. Sweat is not your enemy
                                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                ---
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  But we do not want them fatigued. At all. Then they are dull and, despite what you may read on here, the dull trip is not the winner in a Junior, A/O or Regular at the big shows and rarely pins that well in the 3'...or even 2'6". They need to be expressive if you expect to do well. And they break when they get "overprepped".

                                  So there is a fine line in conditioning to that goal. You will get nailed for ouright disobediance, no excuses are acceptable, the judge just judges the performance of the horse and that is where we are very different then Eventing.

                                  I think what was going on in this example was schooling on a non show day for these horses when they may have been in the stall all day because of the weather the previous one. They needed alot of work and to work off the excess energy and they were getting it.

                                  In mid show season, I even work mine about 40 to 45 on the flat at the trot and canter to maintain fitness, and she will be puffing and sweating-but stay fit enough to do her job. Day before the first classes I will do that and then add an hour hack out (if there is a place) or just stay in that ring with walk breaks but more trot and canter work. Most don't jump much to prep.

                                  I think in OPs case, she may not have been around alot of the higher performance and younger horses and may not realize how much it takes, how much we really do ride those Hunters-it's more then 40 mins 3 times a week.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    My daughter and I were at Thermal on Sunday. We got there by 11:00 and it was cloudy and cold, then warm and sunny, then cloudy and cold...all the horses we saw were relatively quiet except for the jumper who was rearing on his ride back to the barn.

                                    The roads were a mess, very muddy and slippery except for the main road that had this lovely deep rubber stuff over the pavement. The warm up rings looked nice to me, I didn't see any really deep mud or horses slipping around. The hunter rings looked a little wet in places but the jumper rings were nicely packed down. We did see a lot of warming up but nothing in the hunter area that we wouldn't see at any other show. The Grand Prix warm up on the other hand...man are those horses fit!

                                    We watched the hunters for a while and you can see the warm up rings and the show rings equally from where we stood. Some people were cantering for a while and then they would walk for a while before going back to canter. It didn't look stressful for the horses and I am sure it was better for them than standing around getting cold before they had to go into the ring. All in all I liked what I saw and we are going back for week 6 to watch some more, hopefully my daughter will be able to show there next year.
                                    Proud owner of a very pretty but completely useless horse.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Honestly? I was a little taken aback that the OP did not add 'cruelty' to her list of questions. Given her description -- 'hours of riding' and 'white foam coming off the hocks and eyes,' etc. -- it seems that the OP was a little blind to the real issue...

                                      Hunters too fresh? How about horses ridden to a crisp. That's not good horsemanship, plain and simple...

                                      I know, I know, it's been said that the OP maybe couldn't have timed the amount of riding time apparently being logged, etc., but maybe mis-stated the events of Thermal's schooling rings. BUT, if one were to walk in to a horse show and be witness to hours of riding, and white foam streaming off of horses, well, the issue isn't hunter prep but cruelty. That would be my first concern...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Ever sat on a naughty horse that used his freshness as an excuse to unload you in the corner, just for fun, and every time you went by that corner, or passed the white pony? And you're an older A/O, there's no where to lunge, and the turnout is a muddy mess?

                                        In that situation, I might be riding one until there's some foam between his fat hind legs. He's sweaty, so what? Maybe his coat is a little thicker than the just-clipped ones. He'll get to take some walk breaks, and hopefully take a deep breath to relax, but if keeps spooking and trying to buck me off, we start cantering again.

                                        It's happened. Horse got a big bath and bucket of water when he was done. That's not cruelty.

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